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Windows Forum / Windows XP / 64-bit / December 2006Vista Upgrade....
I'm quite confused over where excatly I stand on upgrading to an x64 version of Windows Vista. I purchased an OEM version of XP Professional X64 from ebuyer.com around June 2005. I built a new system and wanted it to be X64 based so I put on XP64, and everything has been fine and dandy, one of the main reasons I was sold on doing it then was because all the hardware I got had driver support and I was told I'd be future proofing my system for the new X64 version of Windows (which we now know as Vista). As far as i've been able to gather from what information there is out there, XP64 users cannot do an "upgrade" to any version of Vista, which I'm fine with anyway. However, there is mention of a discount for Windows 2K/X64 users which allow them to buy the full x86 or x64 Business Edition of Vista at the upgrade price. Now how excatly would we go about claiming this upgrade? I wanted to e-mail MS directly about this, but all the e-mailing seem to want to charge me for it! If anyone could clear this up it would be a big help, because i'd be quite annoyed if i didn't qualify for some sort of discount. I bought XP64 pretty much as soon as it came to market, and today not only do I see the very OEM version I bought over a year ago cheaper, but they now come with a Vista upgrade coupon that permit a discount. I want to upgrade to Vista64 Ultimate, but I can't afford £500 to buy it, esepcially being a student. Thanks for anyone that can shed some light on this. You will be able to buy the upgrade version. You must buy upgrade Vista64. And you will have to do a custom install, which seems from what Colin says will require a very large volume or second volume as it leaves behind the current x64 system gathered into a file called .old if installed in the current x64 volume. > I'm quite confused over where excatly I stand on upgrading to an x64 > version [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Thanks for anyone that can shed some light on this. Yes that's right, you can buy the upgrade version, but you will have to do a clean install. So, the "upgrade" is referring to your license only, there is no way to "upgrade" your existing Windows installation. I believe you will have to start the install from within your existing Windows installation (so you won't be able to format the drive during the clean install... silly). XP x64 can "upgrade" to either Vista Business or Vista Ultimate. - Aaron > You will be able to buy the upgrade version. You must buy upgrade > Vista64. And you will have to do a custom install, which seems from what [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >> >> Thanks for anyone that can shed some light on this. The very large windows.old folder resulted on a test scenario in which I did an outrageous thing or two so should not be taken as how it will actually work with x64. There will be a windows.old, but it will be a pretty normal one. > You will be able to buy the upgrade version. You must buy upgrade > Vista64. And you will have to do a custom install, which seems from what [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >> >> Thanks for anyone that can shed some light on this. Pretty normal meaning about the size of the current Windows partition 'used' size? If so, guess that about 20 gig of unused space would allow the Vista64 to be installed and after deleting the .old, you could then install your programs and replace any data files? What about the unmoveable files? Are there any involved.? > The very large windows.old folder resulted on a test scenario in which I > did an outrageous thing or two so should not be taken as how it will [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >>> >>> Thanks for anyone that can shed some light on this. The unmovable files are just gone. They are things like VSS snapshots (system restore points, etc). You get a new MFT and registry. Yes, however you backed up your files and settings, you restore those and reinstall your apps. What I did that was crazy was do a custom install of Vista x86 on a volume which contained a live XP Pro x64. Since XP Pro x64 cannot run in a virtual machine I had only one chance to try something like that. I had XP x86 on the C: drive on this machine and XP x64 on D:. When I got the TechBeta reward I clean installed Vista x64 on C: and just ignored the XP x64 on D:. I had a dual boot screen when done but I just never booted into XP x64 again. Then I decided to use an MSDN key to install Vista x86 on D: using a custom install (ran Setup from the Vista x64 desktop on C: to preserve drive enumeration). I didn't format D:. I just did a custom install of Vista x86 over XP Pro x64. I did it that way to find out for myself what would happen if a user just assumed that "custom" meant "clean" (as in format the drive first and reinstall). Does Vista permit installing x86 on top of x64? The good news is that you can do that. The bad news is that you can do that. What I found out was that x86 (anything) does not have any idea how to handle the file folders from a previous x64 installation. Instead of just rolling up into windows.old it replaced the OS, did a roll up, but failed to delete the old folder structure and left it intact like an upgrade. I got a custom install that looked like an upgrade but wasn't (the old programs weren't actually installed anymore). I don't remember if you are using Vista x64 or not, but if you are you know what the Program Files and Program Files (x86) file folders are for in a 64bit OS. That's where things had gone wrong. The installation left all the program folders and code intact in both Program Files and Program Files (x86) and then installed new programs into Program Files. That meant that I had both dead (x64) and live (x86) program folders in Program Files and dead (x86) program folders in Program Files (x86). The system seemed OK about that but I could not for the life of me keep track of what was dead and what was alive. Naturally the dead programs folders were just uninstalled program files, but the human interface device back of the keyboard couldn't handle that. Anyway, I played with it a few days just for fun and then flattened with a format from the Vista x64 Drive Manager and reinstalled. I don't know if anybody on the dev team ever thought of trying a stunt like that, but it should be a blocked installation scenario. > Pretty normal meaning about the size of the current Windows partition > 'used' size? If so, guess that about 20 gig of unused space would allow > the Vista64 to be installed and after deleting the .old, you could then > install your programs and replace any data files? What about the > unmoveable files? Are there any involved.? > You will be able to buy the upgrade version. You must buy upgrade > Vista64. And you will have to do a custom install, which seems from what > Colin says will require a very large volume or second volume as it leaves > behind the current x64 system gathered into a file called .old if > installed in the current x64 volume. First, RMONAG11, I asked the very same question you did about a week ago in this forum. You seem to have elicited better answers than I. I guess they got good "practice" on my question before they answered yours. Now, for John Barnes, et al: As I understand it, what you all are saying is that the way we actuate MS's promise of "upgrade pricing" for XP x64 users is simply by going out and buying an upgrade version of Vista, which would be cheaper than a full version. So, does that mean that the cheaper upgrade version is still a full version of Vista? Basically, it's the same disk only with different packaging and pricing to differentiate the "upgrade version" from the "full version"? That is, both are actually full versions, they simply are packaged and priced differently? That's the only way I can see that it would be possible to get an upgrade version yet do a clean install with it. Do I have that right, or am I missing something here? An upgrade edition of Vista is Vista. The retail upgrade and full edition dvd's are identical. The difference in the behavior of Setup is controlled by the product key. Setup branches on product key and the available installation methodolgy is determined that way. The product key also causes Setup to branch to the manifest for the edition of Vista being installed. The resulting installation of Vista, however, is the same whether that edition was installed with an upgrade or full edition product key. You have to be very careful about what you expect from the term "clean installation." If you mean "can I get a classic clean installation, where I first formatted the hard drive and then installed the OS, from an upgrade edition?" then I think the answer may be no. Choosing the custom installation option instead of upgrade has not resulted in a reformatted volume in my experience. If you mean "will I get a clean installation of the operating system?" the answer is yes. Vista uses an imaging methodology that guarantees that all sectors used in laying down the image will inherit the file format of the image regardless of what may or may not have been written to those sectors previously. Additionally, certain folders, like Program Files. users, and Windows are rolled up into windows.old and those may be deleted as with previous versions of Windows. I do not believe it is possible to format the target hard drive before installing Vista with an upgrade edition product key unless MS has made a provision for that by allowing installation to a volume other than the legacy Windows volume that is in play during the upgrade process. That is the one possibility I have never been able to test because the only product keys I have had are full edition pk's. I hope this helps. >> You will be able to buy the upgrade version. You must buy upgrade >> Vista64. And you will have to do a custom install, which seems from what [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Do I have that right, or am I missing something here? Further thought. It is possible to format a volume after you have started Setup from the legacy OS desktop (required when you are using an upgrade edition product key). But you have to minimize the Setup screen, use the legacy OS Disk Manager to delete, create, and assign a drive letter. Do not format since Custom Install will do a quick format if the volume is not formatted yet. You want the NTFS enhancements since XP. You then maximize the Setup screen and click on the Refresh button to get the new volume to show up in the volume list in Setup. What I don't know is if an upgrade edition product key will allow you to instlall Vista on a volume other than the legacy OS system volume. If not, then the above is no help. > An upgrade edition of Vista is Vista. The retail upgrade and full edition > dvd's are identical. The difference in the behavior of Setup is [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] >> >> Do I have that right, or am I missing something here? Darrell's reply to me seems to indicate that a 'clean' install would have to be to another volume. Here is the reply Hello John, I don't think so I haven't tried that scenario, you will not be able to remove the underlying OS from the volume(either the boot or the system volume), clean install would need to be to another volume. If the boot and system partitions were different you may be able to remove the boot partition( the one that contains \windows), but you wouldn't be able to remove the "system" partition ( the one containing the boot files) since the Windows Vista temp files are located on that volume and you can't remove the temp files out from under setup. Thanks, Darrell Gorter[MSFT] This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights > Further thought. It is possible to format a volume after you have started > Setup from the legacy OS desktop (required when you are using an upgrade [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] >>> >>> Do I have that right, or am I missing something here? I want to see someone do that or get an upgrade key myself before I trust the implications of Darrell's reply. Even folks at MS are uncertain about the upgrade edition functionalities. I am tempted to buy an upgrade edition on Jan 30 just to have a product key to experiment with. A Vista Home Basic upgrade edition key would suffice to experiment in a virtual machine with. I have all the candidate Win2k and XP OS's so setting up dual vhd vm's will be no trick. Problem: As far as I can see it is the only scenario that would work with Win2k and XP Pro x64 but that would produce a dual boot scenario with the legacy OS still functional. I can't see MS supporting an upgrade edition scenario that leaves the legacy OS that was used for the upgrade as still functional. Historically that has always been the big NO NO. The legacy license is supposed to be voided by the tieing of the legacy license to the new one. And then there is the volsnap.sys problem when dual booting XP or XP Pro x64 and Vista. And there still remains the problem of the single drive Win2k and XP Pro x64 machines. There are nearly 200 knowledge base articles on microsoft.com concerning Vista and only one cryptic one makes reference to the upgrade scenarios. It simply says you have to run from the legacy desktop. > Darrell's reply to me seems to indicate that a 'clean' install would have > to be to another volume. Here is the reply [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights Time is rushing by and it will be Jan 30 in no time. All upgrade version clean installs to another partition I have done in the past left the old version fully functional. 98 to ME to XP all left the old version fully useable but not licensed. 1 month 3 days and we will know if Microsoft hasn't clarified in the meantime. >I want to see someone do that or get an upgrade key myself before I trust >the implications of Darrell's reply. Even folks at MS are uncertain about [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no >> rights Ok, I've sat and read everything posted on this subject and still I have a question that hasn't actually been hit upon as of yet. Say I buy my "upgrade" copy of Vista and install it, all goes well and I'm running smoothly down life's path on Vista Ultimate x64, a crisis occurs in which I have to do a complete reinstall of Vista, no prior os available, say the loss of the system hdd, where am I aqt that point, do I first have to re-install Win XP x64 then Vista, or am I able to just install Vista. From what I've read thus far it would seem that XP will have to go back on first. Dshai > I'm quite confused over where excatly I stand on upgrading to an x64 > version [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Thanks for anyone that can shed some light on this. After you have successfully installed Vista Ultimate x64, and everything is installed and running fine, you will then do a 'Complete PC Backup', which makes an image of your entire system, to either an external or spare internal Hard Drive, or to (multiple) DVDs, so that in the event of a catastrophic failure of hardware, chronic viral infection etc etc, you will be able to restore said image :-) That's the Microsoft Theory, anyway ;-) It actually works. Or so I have been reliably informed (by a person who used the backup to multiple DVD method) ;) (I have made a full backup, now I'm waiting for an excuse to restore it)  SignatureJane, not plain ;) 64 bit enabled :-) Batteries not included. Braincell on vacation ;-) > Ok, I've sat and read everything posted on this subject and still I have a > question that hasn't actually been hit upon as of yet. Say I buy my [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >> >> Thanks for anyone that can shed some light on this. Seems like curiosity is enough of an excuse. :-) Personally I would expect that most serious users of Vista will have periodic full or incremental backups so they don't have to start from scratch each time. Doesn't a backup of Vista immediately after installation and activation fit on one DVD? Certainly wouldn't after programs and user files are added. > After you have successfully installed Vista Ultimate x64, and everything > is installed and running fine, you will then do a 'Complete PC Backup', [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] >>> >>> Thanks for anyone that can shed some light on this. Curiosity got the better of me ;) Complete PC Backup successfully restored 2 entire hard drives (3 partitions, one blank, 2 with OS, Vista and XP x64). I'm impressed :) SignatureJane, not plain ;) 64 bit enabled :-) Batteries not included. Braincell on vacation ;-) > Seems like curiosity is enough of an excuse. :-) > Personally I would expect that most serious users of Vista will have [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] >>>> >>>> Thanks for anyone that can shed some light on this. It all seems terribly confusing ....... what on earth was wrong with the old ssytem of removing the setup CD, replacing it with the CD of the version you are replacing for verification, putting the new CD back in and continuing with the installation. I would love to go with the first raft, but will have to wait until Gretag-MacBeth update their software so that I can profile my monitor in Vista x64. No profile, no work :( It permitted "casual copying." That's the use of the legacy Windows license to qualify for the upgrade pricing, installing the new Windows from an upgrade cd, and then reusing the legacy cd on another machine. Since an upgrade edition ties the legacy Windows license to the upgrade license that practice was out of compliance. Also, the product key is not sufficient to define the license now. A running, activated, genuine copy of Windows is required to establish that the owner is qualified for the upgrade pricing for Vista. > It all seems terribly confusing ....... what on earth was wrong with the > old [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Gretag-MacBeth update their software so that I can profile my monitor in > Vista x64. No profile, no work :( Right now it appears that your two options if you have to replace the hard drive (or similar scenario) are: (1) Reinstall XP Pro x64 and then run the Vista x64 upgrade edition from the desktop again. (2) Restore the system from an image backup. The confusion is because "upgrade" can mean both upgrade pricing and upgrading-in-place. Since you cannot do an upgrade-in-place from XP Pro x64 to Vista x64 you should think of the upgrade rights giving you a discount price on "migrating" from XP Pro x64 to Vista x64. > Ok, I've sat and read everything posted on this subject and still I have a > question that hasn't actually been hit upon as of yet. Say I buy my [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Dshai Fair enough, all answers make sense, as to the back-up, yep I've got that, although at this point it's XP Pro x64, but it's a habit I got into long ago when it became apparent it made good sense, and now that you mention it Colin you're right, I'll have to go Full Version anyway going from this to Vista so I guess it is a moot point, although for folks running x86 or Win2K it's still viable, and appears to be a possible pain, expecially for those few out there who (gasp) don't possess a burner still (we no who you are and you're going on report for being obscelete...<g> ) anyway, just a question that came to mind and I appreciate all the input regarding it. Dshai > Right now it appears that your two options if you have to replace the hard > drive (or similar scenario) are: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> >> Dshai Perchance has anyone actually tried an "upgrade" install on a newly formatted disk? Some version(s) ago (perhaps this was only office?) would look for the qualifying software, and if not found require the CD/key to be inserted/entered, and then the new key entered and off you went on an install. Old Windows behaved this way, too. The word is that it's changed for Vista, but since upgrade keys aren't available until Vista goes public in late January, I don't know of anyone who has tried it. - Aaron > Perchance has anyone actually tried an "upgrade" install on a newly > formatted disk? Some version(s) ago (perhaps this was only office?) > would look for the qualifying software, and if not found require the > CD/key to be inserted/entered, and then the new key entered and off you > went on an install. When you start Setup and enter the upgrade edition product key you will get a message that the product key you entered requires that you launch Setup from an operating system desktop. Obviously you can't do that if there is no such OS on the machine. Vista Setup does not request shiny media for verification of eligibility for upgrade pricing. Instead it needs to run on a genuine copy of Windows. > Perchance has anyone actually tried an "upgrade" install on a newly > formatted disk? Some version(s) ago (perhaps this was only office?) > would look for the qualifying software, and if not found require the > CD/key to be inserted/entered, and then the new key entered and off you > went on an install. |
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