Vexating workgroup problem

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Dr. Dos - 17 Sep 2005 05:51 GMT

My workgroup LAN connection keeps disappearing.

I have a three node Win98 LAN.
This is what is happening. With no reason, the workgroup
connections stop working. Each machine can no longer find
the other machines under My Computer Neighborhood. Each
machine, under Network Connections will not ID the name of
the workgroup, rather it generates a Windows Explorer dialog
error window: “Unable to browse network. The network is not
available.” The firewall in each computer is OFF.
However, connections through the hub to the internet are
active and working.

Further, when I highlight My Computer Neighborhood in
Windows Explorer (file manager), left click file, and left
click My Computer Neighborhood, and the chose FIND, I can
find each of the networked computers, except instead of the
location being the workgroup name, the LOCATION is “unknown.”

For more than a year, I have had no problems with my LAN
Workgroup. Now each machine, even when disconnected from the
network, and therefore free standing,, cannot find its own
workgroup name and produces the error: “Unable to browse
network. The network is not available..” When all machines
are running, I get the same error message and cannot
affiliate to the workgroup, although access to the internet
is OK. (Therefore, the physical LAN is working)..

AV reports no viruses. I have run spybot and adaware. I am
clean.

Network sharing settings have been changed from LMAnnounce
(yes) to (no), and Browsemaster from (Automatic) to (No).

Since I have no problems with interacting with the internet,
this seems to be a workgroup setup issue.

Can someone say what the correct settings are for the
network in Win98 and Win98SE.

Thank you.

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Richard G. Harper - 17 Sep 2005 11:14 GMT

To browse a local area network or workgroup you must have at least one
computer running as a browse master. If it's disabled on all of them then
that would be my #1 choice for why it's not working now. It could also be a
firewall issue if you've recently installed one.

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Dr. Dos - 17 Sep 2005 20:00 GMT

> To browse a local area network or workgroup you must have at least one
> computer running as a browse master. If it's disabled on all of them then
> that would be my #1 choice for why it's not working now. It could also be a
> firewall issue if you've recently installed one.

I have sent all three of my Windows 98 machines to Browse
Master Enabled and LM Announce as yes. Also quick logon. I
have booted with Client for MS Networks and MS Family. But,
these do not solve my problem.

There are four machines running. Their "names" are P-4, P-5,
P-6 and M-7.
P-6 is an XP Pro- SP2 machine.

This is what is happening. When P-5 is booted and not
attached to the network, when using Windows Explorer (file
manager) to view network connections, I get the error
message, "unable to browse network." Therefore P-5 does not
find itself on the network, and it does not find the work
group under "entire network." When I run P-5 attached to the
network, but no other machine is turned on, I get the same
"unable" message. Occasionally P-5 will find itself under
the network, but then if I close file manager, or reboot
with no changes, next time I look, the network is gone. I
cannot reproduce these behaviors, they just happen.

When I run P-4 (network settings are exactly the same as M-7
and P-5), sometimes P-5 will only see P-4 and not itself,
sometimes it will see P-4 and P-5, and sometimes it will not
see the network (unable to browse). This sequence has
happened merely by opening and closing Windows Explorer
(file manager)and/or just expanding and collapsing Network
Neighborhood. Sometimes this happens in reverse. There is no
predicable pattern. Rebooting produces the same
unpredictable experiences.

M-7 acts the same way. Sometimes I get the error when
clicking on network neighborhood "unable to browse." and M-7
does not see itself in the network and does not see the work
group. I have done this when M-7 was disconnected from the
network, connected to the network with no other machines,
and connect when other machines are running.
Clicking/re-clicking on the network neighborhood sometimes
will "suddenly" cause parts of the network to be revealed,
and even the work group will appear under the entire network.

When I integrate the XP machine P-6, it sees all four
computers (P-4, P-5, P-6, M-7) and the work group name,
while M-7 only sees P-6 and the work group name (and not
itself, or P-4 or P-5 which it saw before a simple reboot,
with no changes). P-5 only sees sees P-6 and the work group
name. P-4 sees all four machines, and even on reboot
continued to see all four. After P-4 was rebooted, M-7 and
P-5 saw all four after View Refresh was done (but not before).

The regular directory tree functions of file manager work
for each machine. Each machine, when connected to a router,
has no problems connecting to the internet OR when using the
network neighborhood subroutine from file nn find computer
can find the other computers.

Machines are virus free, etc., and my tests have been done
with AV, etc, applications, all not running. There is no
firewall (ever) on any machine and the firmware firewall in
the router is programed to pass/ignore/not interfere with my
LAN. There have been no (recent) changes to the router. With
the unpredictable experiences on each Win98 machine while it
is not connected to the router, it has to be something with
the OS.

I have uninstalled and reinstalled the network functions on
each machine, and nothing changes, i.e., same quirky behaviors.

This is madness!!!

This minute, al is normal, but ten minutes ago is was messed up.

Again, thanks for your suggestions.

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PattyL - 17 Sep 2005 22:54 GMT

Assuming that the workgroup name has not changed from when this worked and
that it has no spaces in it and is 11 characters or less, I recommend trying
a new hub.

Random behavior like you are describing is often caused by failing hardware.

PattyL

>> To browse a local area network or workgroup you must have at least one
>> computer running as a browse master. If it's disabled on all of them
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
>
> Again, thanks for your suggestions.

Reply to this Message

Dr. Dos - 18 Sep 2005 01:26 GMT

> Assuming that the workgroup name has not changed from when this worked and
> that it has no spaces in it and is 11 characters or less, I recommend trying
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
>>
>>Again, thanks for your suggestions.

Thanks PattyL,

Hardware is a thought, especially because of the strange
intermittent experiences, but....

Prior to that time I had a similar experience and replaced a
switching hub and the router, and a WiFi card. Altogether,
this network has been stable (mostly) for six years (XP
excepted).

This happens with each machine, even when each is not
connected to the router (free-standing), and also when only
one (at a time) is turned on and connected to a router. The
work group name is "kosher" in all ways, and the work group
LAN has been working nicely for about nine months.

I have two suspicions: a Windows update to the Win98's or my
AV program (Trend PC-Cillin) messing the registry, even when
not running.

System has been stable for four hours now. I am hoping.....

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Dr. Dos - 19 Sep 2005 02:38 GMT

Mr. Harper,

I keep reading of similar situations as mine on this NG. I
have followed your advice regarding Browse Master (and also
turned on LM Announce). I also set Client for Microsoft
Networks for quick log-on.

One suggestion I saw here (below in the thread) was to read
MS KB Q258717, and so I did. While my issue is with Win98,
the symptoms are quite similar to what I experience. I do
not use a password for log-on. I use Microsoft Family
Log-on. Is there a way to deal with the user/log-on issue
and still continue to use the automatic log-on feature of
Microsoft Family Log-on?

e

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User Friendly - 19 Sep 2005 11:30 GMT

>> To browse a local area network or workgroup you must have at least one
>> computer running as a browse master. If it's disabled on all of them
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> e

As I continue to search for understanding about the amply
repeated descriptions of funky and vexing workgroup LAN
problems, I ran across this (old but) useful MS KB article:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/q134304/.

Of particular note is that Browse Master negotiations can
take up to 15 minutes before a newly added machine will be
recognize in Network Neighborhood and Entire Network, and it
can take up to 51 minutes before a dropped-off machine will
be removed from the lists. THEREFORE, troubleshooting or
experimental changes made to the network setup cannot be
immediately "tested" or verified because of this strange
latency. No wonder Browse Master creates so many problems!

It also seems that ANY computer in a work group /could/ be
THE master browse master server. I'd venture to say that
part of the "negotiations" taking place might have to do
with the processor speeds, with the fastest becoming the
master server, especially if all machines are set at Browse
Master Automatic. I'll also venture to guess when the
slowest machine on a work group is booted first, this will
cause problems for the entire network, and I'll further
guess that when THE master browse master server computer
drops into sleep mode, goes off line, or is shut off, the
other computers "fight" to be master in some tortuously slow
motion "negotiation," fathomable only to the MS contract
software developer who wrote these routines, probably back
in 1993.

The apparent recommended "stability setting" (work around
for this quirky function) is to designate one machine as
Browse Master ENABLED, a computer which is NEVER TURNED
OFF!!! (or first on, last off in sequence). I /think/ the
appropriate Browse Master setting for all others is
AUTOMATIC and not disabled, since if, by some chance, THE
master/senior Browse Master computer is off, Microsoft
says:"If browse server capability is disabled on all the
computers in a network, browse functionality is disabled. A
network storm will ensue as clients will be unable to locate
the browse master and will force an election." ...how
lyrical, "a network storm..." I thought that only happened
during solar winds and gamma-ray attacks from black holes!

In conclusion:
1) It seems that there should be a designated SENIOR or
MASTER computer that is either always on, or turned on first
and off last. The Browse Master setting should be ENABLED.

2) All other machines should be set at AUTOMATIC, just in
case the senior machine loses LAN connectivity, thus
preventing a "network storm."

3) What ever intra-LAN negotiations that take place, they
reside in RAM and cannot be found in the registry, hence no
one-time/all-time fix for the flippant behavior.

4) That the TCP/IP protocol setups are proper (I happen to
use static settings which keep my system quite stable,
rather than DHCP). That only one protocol is used (turn off
IPX and NetBEUI)

5) That, obviously, the same work group name is set on all
the machines, and print and file sharing is turned on, as
appropriate, since without file and/or/printer sharing,
there is no Browse Master function, and I guess, no LAN
concerning that machine.

6) While router/hub/switch setup and hardware issues can be
part of the problem, if machines can access the internet,
I'll venture the problems reside on LAN setup on each, or
maybe just one machine (OS set-up, not hardware).

7) Firewalls cause problems. You cannot have a firewall
running on a (any) computer and another running in the
access point/router because it causes conflicts (my painful
experiences as authority). Further, as a troubleshooting
protocol, disable all the local machine firewalls (on a
network without a router firewall).

My unanswered mysteries:
Still a mystery to me are Client for MS Networks Quick Logon
vs Logon and Restore (I've standardized with Quick Logon),
and access control (I set all machines to "share level" vs
"user level"). I also have set LM Announce to YES, not
knowing one way or the other what the setting should be.
Also mysterious is a need to have the same username/password
on each shared computer. I do not use a logon routine
because I use Microsoft Family Logon (automatic logon),
therefore there are no usernames.

I hope this provides some demystification and assistance.

(PS: I am still working on my LAN to get it settled down
with the 15 minute to 51 minute delay business driving me nuts.)

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pjp - 20 Sep 2005 05:52 GMT

You basically are mimicking what I've found and dealt with for years now,
since WFW. I've never really pushed for any solutions as such but just
accepted it as is.

> >> To browse a local area network or workgroup you must have at least one
> >> computer running as a browse master. If it's disabled on all of them
[quoted text clipped - 110 lines]
> (PS: I am still working on my LAN to get it settled down
> with the 15 minute to 51 minute delay business driving me nuts.)

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User Friendly - 21 Sep 2005 06:54 GMT

> You basically are mimicking what I've found and dealt with for years now,
> since WFW. I've never really pushed for any solutions as such but just
[quoted text clipped - 114 lines]
>>(PS: I am still working on my LAN to get it settled down
>>with the 15 minute to 51 minute delay business driving me nuts.)

Yes. Yes. I have experienced this for many years, always
thinking I had mis-set something or other. The importance
for me is not having a perfect system, or not me making
stupid mistakes, but rather, being able to "instantly"
access the computers on my system/in my workgroup. And, when
making changes, have those changes be relatively
instantaneous. I had NO IDEA that Windows, on each separate
machine, would decide, independently, when or if, to
connect/recognize the other computers in the workgroup, and
that Windows could take up to 15 minutes to comply with my
set-up instructions. It is what I call one of Windows 95/98
"dirty little secrets." The problem was known in Win95 yet
it was passed on to Win98 and Win98SE. I think this is fixed
in XP, but not backward corrected. ...Could have been fixed
in 98SE, should have been fix in some Win98 SP update, but
not fixed. At least there are users in this NG who ask the
questions and some users who answer them. I really wish the
MVPs would be more candid about this problem, i.e., it is a
known problem, here are the parameters of the fixes, and
this is what MS says to expect. If this cannot be fixed
(which it cannot), please so say.

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Richard G. Harper - 19 Sep 2005 11:40 GMT

The means of log-on are not important, only that names and passwords match
when trying to access network resources.

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>> To browse a local area network or workgroup you must have at least one
>> computer running as a browse master. If it's disabled on all of them
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> e

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