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Windows Forum / Windows 98 / Setup / October 2005

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Setting up sound drivers in DOS mode

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SlickRCBD - 23 Oct 2005 04:04 GMT
I recently aquired a used Windows 98SE computer that somebody I knew
wanted to get rid of. I also managed to bum off some old games that I
couldn't afford to buy back when I was in high school. These games
require DOS mode to play. Unfortunetly, I can't figure out how to set up
DOS for the sound drivers.

The drivers can be downloaded from here:
http://support.dell.com/support/downloads/download.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=gen&releasei
d=R14174&SystemID=PLX_PNT_P03_GX110&os=W98&osl=en&deviceid=170&devlib=0&typecnt=
1&vercnt=2&formatcnt=2&fileid=11984


Could somebody please tell me what exactly I'm suppost to put in
config.sys or autoexec.bat or dosstart.bat or whatever to make the sound
drivers available when I "reboot in MS-DOS mode" so that I can try the
games with sound?

I'm afraid that in the MS-DOS era, I was using an Apple II, and in the
win98 era I was using a Macintosh. I never really had to deal with the
joys of DOS drivers. Please forgive my ignorance. I had enough trouble
figuring how to get the CD-ROM to work in MS-DOS mode without screwing
up Windows (I didn't know about dosstart.bat and used autoexec).
Jeff Richards - 23 Oct 2005 05:46 GMT
The description indicates it's a Windows driver, not a DOS driver. When you
run the EXE that you downloaded, what happens?
Signature

Jeff Richards
MS MVP (Windows - Shell/User)

>I recently aquired a used Windows 98SE computer that somebody I knew wanted
>to get rid of. I also managed to bum off some old games that I couldn't
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> figuring how to get the CD-ROM to work in MS-DOS mode without screwing up
> Windows (I didn't know about dosstart.bat and used autoexec).
SlickRCBD - 23 Oct 2005 09:07 GMT
> The description indicates it's a Windows driver, not a DOS driver. When you
> run the EXE that you downloaded, what happens?
An installer pops up that doesn't give me much in the way of options.
Merly asks for a folder to unpack to. It unpacks the archive to a
default of c:\DELL\Drivers\1405U
that then launches an HTM file with a button marked install, which then
installs using a standard installer that just gives me a shrink-wrap
license and installs without any questions. I think it's called a wise
installer or an install-shield thingie, but I forgot.

What I need to know if it's a Windows driver is how and where do I get
the DOS drivers? I assume that's what I need to "Restart in MS-DOS mode"
 and have sound.  I'm sorry, I'm kinda a newbie at these kind of
problems, so I don't know what I need to look up. I just want to get the
sound "card" working in MS-DOS mode with some old games.
Jeff Richards - 23 Oct 2005 10:26 GMT
If your sound is working properly in Windows then I would ignore what you
have found on the Dell site. Have a look at the instructions and links here
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=192232
Sound Problems with MS-DOS-Based Games in Windows 98
Signature

Jeff Richards
MS MVP (Windows - Shell/User)

>> The description indicates it's a Windows driver, not a DOS driver. When
>> you run the EXE that you downloaded, what happens?
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> don't know what I need to look up. I just want to get the sound "card"
> working in MS-DOS mode with some old games.
SlickRCBD - 23 Oct 2005 12:39 GMT
That was most unhelpful. The article mentions a blaster= line in
config.sys, but the provided link makes no mention of such a thing and
searching didn't help. I just got info on using a sound blaster card. I
have no clue how that should help me.

Perhaps I should rephrase my request. Could somebody explain with
step-by-step instructions what to do to get the sound to work in MS-DOS
mode? I'm ignorant of WINDOWS, but not with computers. I'm pretty good
with Macs and passible with linux/unix.

> If your sound is working properly in Windows then I would ignore what you
> have found on the Dell site. Have a look at the instructions and links here
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>>>> The description indicates it's a Windows driver, not a DOS driver.
When
>>>> you run the EXE that you downloaded, what happens?
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>> don't know what I need to look up. I just want to get the sound "card"
>> working in MS-DOS mode with some old games.
Franc Zabkar - 24 Oct 2005 07:05 GMT
>Perhaps I should rephrase my request. Could somebody explain with
>step-by-step instructions what to do to get the sound to work in MS-DOS
>mode?

The SoundMAX FAQ doesn't mention anything about getting sound to work
in a Windows DOS box, or restarting in DOS mode, but it does say that
there are no DOS drivers.

==================================================================
http://forms.analog.com/Form_Pages/soundMAX/soundMAXSupportFAQ.html#question37

37 Where can I find DOS drivers for SoundMAX?

SoundMAX does not support DOS operation. Audio may or may not work
with different DOS applications.
==================================================================

AFAIK, the problem with getting games to run in MS-DOS mode is that
the sound card's resources need to be visible in MS-DOS mode. MS-DOS
games usually understand Creative Sound Blaster compatible cards, ie
those that occupy the same IO ports and use the same registers as the
original standard sound card. I suspect that some games can sniff out
the card's resources on their own, while others must consult the
BLASTER environment variable for the card's IRQ, DMA, and IO port
settings. Newer cards that are unable to emulate the Sound Blaster or
other old cards (eg Adlib?) may not be recognised by DOS games.

By way of example, my Win95 box runs an old sound card with an Opti
89C928 chipset. The Opti card came with DOS and Win3.1x drivers, but
not Win9x. To get the card to work with Win95 I've had to configure
its registers for Sound Blaster mode. I do this using an Opti-supplied
configurator utility that runs from autoexec.bat just before the GUI
loads. The only feature that I can't get to work is the mixer (and
therefore the microphone), but I suspect this is because Opti's mixer
may not follow the Creative standard.

What devices do you see in Control Panel in the "Sound, video, and
game controllers section"? What resources are assigned to them? Do you
see an "SB16 Audio device"? "DOS mode MPU-401 emulator"?

-- Franc Zabkar

Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
SlickRCBD - 28 Oct 2005 22:11 GMT
>>Perhaps I should rephrase my request. Could somebody explain with
>>step-by-step instructions what to do to get the sound to work in MS-DOS
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
> Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
Sorry I took so long, I wasn't able to get back to this issue because of
more pressing problems in the real world.

I only see one device:
"SoundMAX Integrated Digital Audio"
The contents of each panel is as follows
General:
    Device type: Sound, video, and game controllers
    Manufacturer: Analog Devices, Inc.
    Hardware version: 002
    Device status: This device is working properly
    Device usage:
        [ ] Disable in this hardware profile
        [X] Exists in all hardware profiles
Driver:
    Provider: Analog Devices
    Date: 10-1-1999
    To view detail... (not bothering because it seems illrelivant)
    Driver File details:
        Driver files:
            C:\WINDOWS\OPTIONS\CABS\DRIVERS\smwdm.sys
            C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\VMM32VXD (ntkern.vxd)
            C:\SYSTEM\MMDEVLDR.VXD
            C:\SYSTEM32\DRIVERS\SMWDM.SYS
        Provider: Analog Devices, Inc.
        File version: 5.12.01.3620
        Copyright: Copyright (C) Analog Devices, Inc. 1998-2003
Resources:
    [X] Use automatic settings
    Resource Type        Setting
    Interupt request    10
    Input/Output Range    D800-D8FF
    Input/Output Range    DC80-DCBF
    Conflicting device list:
    No conflicts.
SlickRCBD - 28 Oct 2005 22:12 GMT
>>Perhaps I should rephrase my request. Could somebody explain with
>>step-by-step instructions what to do to get the sound to work in MS-DOS
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
> Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
Sorry I took so long, I wasn't able to get back to this issue because of
more pressing problems in the real world.

I only see one device:
"SoundMAX Integrated Digital Audio"
The contents of each panel is as follows
General:
    Device type: Sound, video, and game controllers
    Manufacturer: Analog Devices, Inc.
    Hardware version: 002
    Device status: This device is working properly
    Device usage:
        [ ] Disable in this hardware profile
        [X] Exists in all hardware profiles
Driver:
    Provider: Analog Devices
    Date: 10-1-1999
    To view detail... (not bothering because it seems illrelivant)
    Driver File details:
        Driver files:
            C:\WINDOWS\OPTIONS\CABS\DRIVERS\smwdm.sys
            C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\VMM32VXD (ntkern.vxd)
            C:\SYSTEM\MMDEVLDR.VXD
            C:\SYSTEM32\DRIVERS\SMWDM.SYS
        Provider: Analog Devices, Inc.
        File version: 5.12.01.3620
        Copyright: Copyright (C) Analog Devices, Inc. 1998-2003
Resources:
    [X] Use automatic settings
    Resource Type        Setting
    Interupt request    10
    Input/Output Range    D800-D8FF
    Input/Output Range    DC80-DCBF
    Conflicting device list:
    No conflicts.
SlickRCBD - 28 Oct 2005 22:14 GMT
>>Perhaps I should rephrase my request. Could somebody explain with
>>step-by-step instructions what to do to get the sound to work in MS-DOS
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
> Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
Sorry I took so long, I wasn't able to get back to this issue because of
more pressing problems in the real world.

I only see one device:
"SoundMAX Integrated Digital Audio"
The contents of each panel is as follows
General:
    Device type: Sound, video, and game controllers
    Manufacturer: Analog Devices, Inc.
    Hardware version: 002
    Device status: This device is working properly
    Device usage:
        [ ] Disable in this hardware profile
        [X] Exists in all hardware profiles
Driver:
    Provider: Analog Devices
    Date: 10-1-1999
    To view detail... (not bothering because it seems illrelivant)
    Driver File details:
        Driver files:
            C:\WINDOWS\OPTIONS\CABS\DRIVERS\smwdm.sys
            C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\VMM32VXD (ntkern.vxd)
            C:\SYSTEM\MMDEVLDR.VXD
            C:\SYSTEM32\DRIVERS\SMWDM.SYS
        Provider: Analog Devices, Inc.
        File version: 5.12.01.3620
        Copyright: Copyright (C) Analog Devices, Inc. 1998-2003
Resources:
    [X] Use automatic settings
    Resource Type        Setting
    Interupt request    10
    Input/Output Range    D800-D8FF
    Input/Output Range    DC80-DCBF
    Conflicting device list:
    No conflicts.
SlickRCBD - 28 Oct 2005 22:15 GMT
>>Perhaps I should rephrase my request. Could somebody explain with
>>step-by-step instructions what to do to get the sound to work in MS-DOS
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
> Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
Sorry I took so long, I wasn't able to get back to this issue because of
more pressing problems in the real world.

I only see one device:
"SoundMAX Integrated Digital Audio"
The contents of each panel is as follows
General:
    Device type: Sound, video, and game controllers
    Manufacturer: Analog Devices, Inc.
    Hardware version: 002
    Device status: This device is working properly
    Device usage:
        [ ] Disable in this hardware profile
        [X] Exists in all hardware profiles
Driver:
    Provider: Analog Devices
    Date: 10-1-1999
    To view detail... (not bothering because it seems illrelivant)
    Driver File details:
        Driver files:
            C:\WINDOWS\OPTIONS\CABS\DRIVERS\smwdm.sys
            C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\VMM32VXD (ntkern.vxd)
            C:\SYSTEM\MMDEVLDR.VXD
            C:\SYSTEM32\DRIVERS\SMWDM.SYS
        Provider: Analog Devices, Inc.
        File version: 5.12.01.3620
        Copyright: Copyright (C) Analog Devices, Inc. 1998-2003
Resources:
    [X] Use automatic settings
    Resource Type        Setting
    Interupt request    10
    Input/Output Range    D800-D8FF
    Input/Output Range    DC80-DCBF
    Conflicting device list:
    No conflicts.
Franc Zabkar - 30 Oct 2005 00:52 GMT
>>>Perhaps I should rephrase my request. Could somebody explain with
>>>step-by-step instructions what to do to get the sound to work in MS-DOS
[quoted text clipped - 74 lines]
>    Conflicting device list:
>    No conflicts.

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that your drivers provide you with
no DOS support. There are no Sound Blaster devices, for example. The
"WDM" in "SMWDM" refers to the Windows Driver Model which is a
departure from the old VXD driver standard. WDM is intended to
facilitate a way for software developers to code drivers that can be
used across the full range of Windows platforms beginning with
Win98SE. I don't know whether this means that DOS support is excluded
by design.

-- Franc Zabkar

Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
Jeff Richards - 24 Oct 2005 10:07 GMT
The article shows what needs to be done for a specific sound card.  Your
card may require the same thing, or something similar.  Without knowing the
exact make and model of card (or equivalent motherboard device) there is no
way of telling..  However, the article also included a general reference to
running games in DOS mode.  Did you follow the reference and check out the
general tips for getting games to work in DOS mode?

There is no step-by-step procedure for getting sound to work in DOS mode
because it should work without following a step-by-step procedure.  If that
doesn't happen in your case then you have to troubleshoot the problem.
Troubleshooting starts by making sure you understand the issues, and by
seeing what other people have done to fix similar problems.  There is no
simple answer, but there is a lot of information available if you look for
it.
Signature

Jeff Richards
MS MVP (Windows - Shell/User)

> That was most unhelpful. The article mentions a blaster= line in
> config.sys, but the provided link makes no mention of such a thing and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> mode? I'm ignorant of WINDOWS, but not with computers. I'm pretty good
> with Macs and passible with linux/unix.
SlickRCBD - 31 Oct 2005 03:22 GMT
> The article shows what needs to be done for a specific sound card.  Your
> card may require the same thing, or something similar.  Without knowing the
> exact make and model of card (or equivalent motherboard device) there is no
> way of telling..  However, the article also included a general reference to
> running games in DOS mode.  Did you follow the reference and check out the
> general tips for getting games to work in DOS mode?

Actually, I previously provided such information in my other posts, and
it should have been quoted.
Don Phillipson - 23 Oct 2005 22:00 GMT
> I recently aquired a used Windows 98SE computer that somebody I knew
> wanted to get rid of. I also managed to bum off some old games that I
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> The drivers can be downloaded from here:

http://support.dell.com/support/downloads/download.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=gen&releasei
d=R14174&SystemID=PLX_PNT_P03_GX110&os=W98&osl=en&deviceid=170&devlib=0&typecnt=
1&vercnt=2&formatcnt=2&fileid=11984


> Could somebody please tell me what exactly I'm suppost to put in
> config.sys or autoexec.bat or dosstart.bat or whatever to make the sound
> drivers available when I "reboot in MS-DOS mode" so that I can try the
> games with sound?

Standard implementations of Win98 do not need AUTOEXEC.BAT
and CONFIG.SYS.  Rename these and boot without them unless
you want to do something non-standard.

Tweaks to run DOS programs under Win98 are discussed in
PROGRAMS.TXT and possibly other MS documentation.  E.g.
you can manipulate memory or load special drivers via / Properties
for each DOS EXE (without rebooting.)  In general, common functions
like audio are better handled via Win98 rather than DOS drivers.

[ NGs alt.win98,alt.comp.os.windows-98se removed from your multipost.]
Signature

Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

Ben Myers - 24 Oct 2005 00:23 GMT
If the computer has a sound card, please repost with the manufacturer and
model number.

Ben

> I recently aquired a used Windows 98SE computer that somebody I knew
> wanted to get rid of. I also managed to bum off some old games that I
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> figuring how to get the CD-ROM to work in MS-DOS mode without screwing
> up Windows (I didn't know about dosstart.bat and used autoexec).
SlickRCBD - 24 Oct 2005 03:46 GMT
> If the computer has a sound card, please repost with the manufacturer and
> model number.
>
> Ben

>>http://support.dell.com/support/downloads/download.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=gen&releasei
d=R14174&SystemID=PLX_PNT_P03_GX110&os=W98&osl=en&deviceid=170&devlib=0&typecnt=
1&vercnt=2&formatcnt=2&fileid=11984

The computer I aquired used from a friend of my mother's who upgraded
was going to get rid of it because they hadn't used it in several years.
This person is not very computer literate and had tossed all the
manuals. All the information I have is what Windows configuration tells
me and that is pretty much mirrored on the link I provided. Not all the
cards in the thing are well labeled either.

Don Phillipson wrote:
> Standard implementations of Win98 do not need AUTOEXEC.BAT
> and CONFIG.SYS.  Rename these and boot without them unless
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> [ NGs alt.win98,alt.comp.os.windows-98se removed from your multipost.]

One of the games in question explicidly says that you MUST run it in
MS-DOS mode, and Microsoft's website also confirms that. I've tried it
and it crashes the computer under windows, though there is sound. When I
run it after I "Restart in MS-DOS mode" it runs fine except there is no
sound and the game reports that it can't find the card/drivers.

What I need to know is how to take the information/files availble at
that link and use it to get sound working in DOS mode.
Ben Myers - 24 Oct 2005 04:02 GMT
See if the card has an FCC ID number.

http://www.driverzone.com/fcc_id_search.htm

Ben

> > If the computer has a sound card, please repost with the manufacturer and
> > model number.
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> What I need to know is how to take the information/files availble at
> that link and use it to get sound working in DOS mode.
Don Phillipson - 24 Oct 2005 14:06 GMT
> Don Phillipson wrote:
>  >   In general, common functions
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> run it after I "Restart in MS-DOS mode" it runs fine except there is no
> sound and the game reports that it can't find the card/drivers.

Agreed, running this particular game on a Windows
PC requires rebooting to DOS with appropriate DOS
(not Windows) drivers for audio components (and
possibly others e.g. video.)  The simplest way to do
this is to put all DOS drivers onto a floppy (if space
permits) that boots DOS and (in AUTOEXEC.BAT
and CONFIG.SYS) calls  the appropriate DOS drivers.

Signature

Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

mdp - 25 Oct 2005 03:11 GMT
Below are two applications that may be able to tell you what kind of
soundcard you have without physically examining the HW.

HWInfo:  You can download a DOS or Windows version:

http://www.hwinfo.com/

Everest:  This runs under Windows:

http://www.lavalys.com/products/download.php?pid=1&lang=en

>> If the computer has a sound card, please repost with the manufacturer and
>> model number.
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> What I need to know is how to take the information/files availble at that
> link and use it to get sound working in DOS mode.
cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user) - 24 Oct 2005 11:24 GMT
On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 22:04:07 -0500, SlickRCBD <slickrcbd@hotmail.com>

>I recently aquired a used Windows 98SE computer that somebody I knew
>wanted to get rid of. I also managed to bum off some old games that I
>couldn't afford to buy back when I was in high school. These games
>require DOS mode to play. Unfortunetly, I can't figure out how to set up
>DOS for the sound drivers.

Ah - this is where one realizes how much better things now are...  :-(

>The drivers can be downloaded from here:

>http://support.dell.com/support/downloads/download.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=gen&releasei
d=R14174&SystemID=PLX_PNT_P03_GX110&os=W98&osl=en&deviceid=170&devlib=0&typecnt=
1&vercnt=2&formatcnt=2&fileid=11984

Release Title:  Audio: Analog Devices AD1881 Integrated Audio, Driver,
Windows 98, English, OptiPlex GX110, GX200, v. 5.00.2231, A02
Release Date:  05/01/2000
Description:  Analog Devices SoundMAX Integrated Digital Audio
                   (AC97 AD1881) Driver, Version 5.00.2231, A02

OK, that skips a number of questions!

>Could somebody please tell me what exactly I'm suppost to put in
>config.sys or autoexec.bat or dosstart.bat or whatever to make the sound
>drivers available when I "reboot in MS-DOS mode" so that I can try the
>games with sound?

Sure, I'll get to that in a moment.

>I'm afraid that in the MS-DOS era, I was using an Apple II, and in the
>win98 era I was using a Macintosh. I never really had to deal with the
>joys of DOS drivers. Please forgive my ignorance.

OK - the downside is, there's a lot to learn; the upside is, you have
a wide range of "unrelated" experience that makes learning easier!

"DOS sound drivers" is a trick question - in the DOS era, most games
interacted directly with the sound hardware, without DOS or drivers
playing any role at all.  Your hardware was either compatible, or it
wasn't - and that's what gave rise to Creative Sound Blaster's
dominance as a de facto standard, to be copied as closely as
litigation and patents would allow.

There are two basic sound functionalities that a DOS-capable sound
card (or integrated sound) should support in hardware.  The first is
FM music synthesis, with the old "Ad Lib" card as standard, and the
second is digitized sound, to Sound Blaster, Sound Blaster Pro (and
Pro 2) and (rarely) Sound Blaster 16 levels of compatibility.

An old PC would or should have this capability.  You'd go to DOS mode,
and it would work, period.  If in Windows, you'd have to use Windows
drivers to get support there.

However, your PC is newer than that, from an age when Windows and
DirectX were becoming more important than DOS compatibility, and when
central processing power made it possible to use minimal sound
hardware with software drivers doing all the work.  That's what the
"AC97" item tells me; that this is more modern "soft" sound hardware
built to the AC97 spec to work in Windows, with DOS needs typically
being catered for via Windows drivers emulating the old hardware.

So you may need "DOS drivers" after all.  You may get sound support
for DOS games only while in Windows, or you may need to add DOS
drivers or TSRs (resident programs) to emulate the hardware in DOS
mode (where there are no Windows drivers in effect).

There is a LOT of detail on this stuff; I'll type what I can manage
for now, but be advised there may be more info you need as you go
along, so feel free to post back for that.

There are three ways to run DOS apps and games:

1)  In Windows 9x GUI, as a "console session"

When you do this, the DOS game gets Windows driver support that
provides a LOT of stuff...
 - XMS, EMS, DPMS memory management, including paging to HD
 - network, file share locking, disk caching, CD-ROM support
 - VESA SVGA, sound, mouse driver support
...so often the best way to run DOS games, is to run them within
Windows!  Out of 50 or so DOS games, the only ones I had to run in DOS
mode were: Indy 500, the Jill of the Jungle series, Lemmings, and...
that's about all I can think of right now.  It's not like Win3.yuk !

2)  In "Use with current..." DOS mode

You've discovered "Restart in DOS Mode" from the Shutdown menu, and
I'd use that as a single point of entry for any apps that need DOS
mode, rather than set individual .pif to run each one directly.  If
there are conflicting memory management etc. needs, I'd use [Menu] in
Config.sys via "Specify a new..." instead of "Use with current..."

"Restart in DOS Mode" uses "Exit to DOS.pif", which basically runs
Command.com in DOS Mode.  This is controlled via the Properties of the
.pif, and this defaults to "Use with current configuration" once you
select the option to "Run in DOS Mode".

In "Use with current...", the system exits Windows without booting,
and runs DOSStart.bat on the way to running your program (or
Command.com, in the case of "Exit to DOS.pif").  When the DOS session
is done, Exit will restart Windows without a reboot, unless some
resident DOS drivers or programs were loaded in the course of the DOS
mode session; if so, then it reboots into Windows.

What the DOS app sees, is whatever was loaded under the Windows boot,
plus whatever changes DOSStart.bat can add.  Generally, you don't want
to pollutre Windows with DOS drivers, so you'd typically have
HiMem.sys providing XMS and DOS=High, no Emm386.exe providing EMS or
DOS=UMB, no CD-ROM support, and no mouse.  You'd add mouse via
DOSStart.bat, but it's more difficult to add CD-ROM support, and
impossible to alter the memory management.

3)  In "Specify a new..." DOS mode

This is far more powerful than "Use with current...", because you can
set up your own private Config.sys and Autoexec.bat that will be
extracted from the .PIF and into effect, when the PC reboots to run
the "Specify..." DOS mode session.  DOSStart.bat is not processed in
this mode, and Exit reboots the system back into Windows.  

Unlike "Use with...", if you reboot while in the DOS mode session, the
same DOS mode session runs again, and will continue to do so on every
boot until you Exit the session.  This I see as desirable behaviour,
e.g. when troubleshooting sick PCs where you don't want Windows.

Because you have full cotrol over Config.sys (where memory management
is done and DOS drivers are loaded) and Autoexec.bat (where you can
automate things you'd normally do from the command line), you can get
exactly the settings you want without affecting Windows.  You can also
use a Config.sys [Menu] to select alternate setups at boot time.

When it comes to sound support, some modern sound chipsets require
Plug-n-Play initialization to work.  This can be done by BIOS (PnP OS
set to No) and is generally (re-)done by Windows.  It stays in effect
until the system is reset; sometimes it persists across soft restarts,
other times not.  What this means is that you may find you have "no
sound" in DOS mode if you use "Specify a new...", if the soft reset
clears the PnP state, or when powering directly up into DOS mode to
restart a "Specify..." session or via F8 menu, if the hard reset
clears PnP state that you need to use the sound.

If the above applies, then it may be worth trying "Use with
current..." after all, as that may preserve the PnP state as the
session doesn't restart the PC when it runs.

>--------------- ---- --- -- - -  -    -
  I'm baaaack!
>--------------- ---- --- -- - -  -    -
Franc Zabkar - 25 Oct 2005 07:46 GMT
>There are three ways to run DOS apps and games:

<snip>

>2)  In "Use with current..." DOS mode

>"Restart in DOS Mode" uses "Exit to DOS.pif", which basically runs
>Command.com in DOS Mode.  This is controlled via the Properties of the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>and runs DOSStart.bat on the way to running your program (or
>Command.com, in the case of "Exit to DOS.pif").

>What the DOS app sees, is whatever was loaded under the Windows boot,
>plus whatever changes DOSStart.bat can add.  Generally, you don't want
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>DOSStart.bat, but it's more difficult to add CD-ROM support, and
>impossible to alter the memory management.

Thanks for your very informative post. It filled in a lot of gaps for
me. I wonder if you could now explain why my PNP ISA hardware modem
behaves as it does. :-)

I have my BIOS set to "PnP aware OS = no". Despite this, my modem is
not detected by DOS. Using Debug I am able to confirm that the modem's
COM port is not present in DOS's port table. It is only after the GUI
loads that its resources are assigned.

If I now "restart in MS-DOS mode", or switch to a Windows DOS box, the
modem's COM port remains invisible. In MS-DOS mode there is nothing I
can do to enable the port as Windows appears to have released all of
its resources. However, in a DOS window I can make the port visible to
DOS by using Debug to add it to the port table at addresses 40:0 -
40:f.

This behaviour appears to contradict your statement that "the DOS app
sees ... whatever was loaded under the Windows boot".

-- Franc Zabkar

Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user) - 26 Oct 2005 11:24 GMT
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:46:36 +1000, Franc Zabkar
>On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:24:39 +0200, "cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)"

>>There are three ways to run DOS apps and games:

>>2)  In "Use with current..." DOS mode

>>In "Use with current...", the system exits Windows without booting,
>>and runs DOSStart.bat on the way to running your program (or
>>Command.com, in the case of "Exit to DOS.pif").

>>You'd add mouse via DOSStart.bat, but it's more difficult to add
>>CD-ROM support, and impossible to alter the memory management.

>Thanks for your very informative post. It filled in a lot of gaps

It's a pleasure!  

Personally, I use (3) "Specify..." as it's far more powerful than (2).

>I wonder if you could now explain why my PNP ISA hardware modem
>behaves as it does. :-)

>I have my BIOS set to "PnP aware OS = no". Despite this, my modem is
>not detected by DOS.

That depends on how well the modem can emulate the legacy hardware
arrangement of a serial COM port with standard hardware resources that
connects to the modem as a serial device.

If that is emulated within Windows device drivers, then the modem
won't be visible when those are not in effect, unless alternate
drivers are applied to the OS you are using.  

Remember, DOS mode is a different OS rather than a "part of Windows",
using IO.SYS as the kernel instead of Windows, but using the same file
system in almost the same way (exception; no LFN support).

Folks who think that "Win9x runs on top of DOS" may miss this point
completely, and remain ineffective in contexts where this matters.

>Using Debug I am able to confirm that the modem's COM port is
>not present in DOS's port table. It is only after the GUI loads that
>its resources are assigned.

Yup.  It's a "Windows modem", most likely.

>If I now "restart in MS-DOS mode", or switch to a Windows DOS box, the
>modem's COM port remains invisible. In MS-DOS mode there is nothing I
>can do to enable the port as Windows appears to have released all of
>its resources. However, in a DOS window I can make the port visible to
>DOS by using Debug to add it to the port table at addresses 40:0 - 40:f

Oooo... debug in Windows; I haven't gone that deep or pokey!

>This behaviour appears to contradict your statement that "the DOS app
>sees ... whatever was loaded under the Windows boot".

Not really - as what drives the modem is not loaded under the Windows
boot, but as part of the driver set loaded within Windows.  I code my
English as I used to code code, i.e. as carefully as I can     :-)

>---------- ----- ---- --- -- - -  -    -
  On the 'net, *everyone* can hear you scream
>---------- ----- ---- --- -- - -  -    -
Franc Zabkar - 26 Oct 2005 21:22 GMT
>On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:46:36 +1000, Franc Zabkar
>>On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:24:39 +0200, "cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)"

>>I have my BIOS set to "PnP aware OS = no". Despite this, my modem is
>>not detected by DOS.
>
>That depends on how well the modem can emulate the legacy hardware
>arrangement of a serial COM port with standard hardware resources that
>connects to the modem as a serial device.

It does this perfectly. It's a full hardware, controller based ISA
modem. It can be configured in jumpered mode or in PnP mode. In
jumpered mode I can choose the IRQ and the IO port. DOS then sees a
standard COM port at 2f8, 3f8, 2e8, or 3e8.

The hardware blocks are as follows:

ISA bus <-> PnP chip <-> UART <-> controller <-> DSP <-> DAA

or

ISA bus <-> jumpers <-> UART <-> controller <-> DSP <-> DAA

>>Using Debug I am able to confirm that the modem's COM port is
>>not present in DOS's port table. It is only after the GUI loads that
>>its resources are assigned.

>Yup.  It's a "Windows modem", most likely.

Definitely not. It appears to me that the BIOS cannot configure the
modem.

>>If I now "restart in MS-DOS mode", or switch to a Windows DOS box, the
>>modem's COM port remains invisible. In MS-DOS mode there is nothing I
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>Not really - as what drives the modem is not loaded under the Windows
>boot, but as part of the driver set loaded within Windows.

There are no drivers, only those that are associated with a standard
COM port. It seems to me that DOS (or IO.SYS) detects the ports at
bootup and constructs a port table. Windows then finds an additional
port and assigns resources to it. If I now switch to a DOS box, DOS
refers to the old port table and remains unaware of the newest port.
The port's resources have not been released, though. To make DOS aware
of the new port, I need to tell it that it exists be using debug to
manually update the table.

A "restart in MS-DOS mode" releases the modem's resources. Adding the
COM port to the port table at this time does not make the modem
visible to DOS.

Now do you see why I'm confused? :-)

Here is some background info on the subject:
http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/msg/8c49a35
b389a6e1f?dmode=source&hl=en

http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/msg/ba19bbe
2edef6078?dmode=source&hl=en


BTW, my apology to the OP for appearing to have hijacked this thread,
but I believe that a discussion of how resources are manipulated by
DOS and Windows goes to the crux of the OP's question.

-- Franc Zabkar

Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
SlickRCBD - 31 Oct 2005 03:24 GMT
>>On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:46:36 +1000, Franc Zabkar
>>
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
>
> Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
It's ok, I'm lost as it is, form what the other poster said, I need to
find some way to emulate SB hardware in DOS mode, though I don't have a
clue how to do that. I've got a lot of catching up to do.
SlickRCBD - 31 Oct 2005 03:26 GMT
>>On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:46:36 +1000, Franc Zabkar
>>
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
>
> Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
It's ok, I'm lost as it is, form what the other poster said, I need to
find some way to emulate SB hardware in DOS mode, though I don't have a
clue how to do that. I've got a lot of catching up to do on configuring
dos/windows. To think that I thought I was proficient in MS-DOS because
I know basic and quite a few moe advanced DOS commands.
SlickRCBD - 31 Oct 2005 03:26 GMT
>>On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:46:36 +1000, Franc Zabkar
>>
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
>
> Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
It's ok, I'm lost as it is, form what the other poster said, I need to
find some way to emulate SB hardware in DOS mode, though I don't have a
clue how to do that. I've got a lot of catching up to do on configuring
dos/windows. To think that I thought I was proficient in MS-DOS because
I know basic and quite a few moe advanced DOS commands.
SlickRCBD - 31 Oct 2005 03:27 GMT
>>On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:46:36 +1000, Franc Zabkar
>>
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
>
> Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
It's ok, I'm lost as it is, form what the other poster said, I need to
find some way to emulate SB hardware in DOS mode, though I don't have a
clue how to do that. I've got a lot of catching up to do on configuring
dos/windows. To think that I thought I was proficient in MS-DOS because
I know basic and quite a few moe advanced DOS commands.
 
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