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Windows Forum / Windows 98 / General Topics / November 2006How to make em dash an easy quick character
I am so tired of having to type Alt+(NUM)0151 whenever I want to type an em dash in a Windows application such as Outlook Express. Is there some way I can reconfigure my keyboard to be able to type an em dash as easily as I type an exclamation mark or a question mark—with a single key? This is not a problem in MS Word, because in Word you can easily assign the em dash to any key combination you want. But I don't know how re-assign a key for all Windows applications. I use Windows 98. Larry For example, the key just above the Enter key, when pressed with Shift, types the vertical line character: < | >. I almost never use this. Could this key be reconfigured so that it produces the em dash? And if I ever wanted that the vertical line character back, would there be some way to toggle the two settings for that key? > I am so tired of having to type Alt+(NUM)0151 whenever I want to type an em > dash in a Windows application such as Outlook Express. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Larry I know there are utilities that allow the user to assign key combinations to any character. I don't want an extra utility for this. I want to change the key itself. Thanks. > For example, the key just above the Enter key, when pressed with Shift, > types the vertical line character: < | >. I almost never use this. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > > > Larry > I know there are utilities that allow the user to assign key combinations to > any character. I don't want an extra utility for this. I want to change > the key itself. Most (all?) of the old utilities for this were TSR apps written for DOS. Windows is different, in that its specific installations control the keyboard (e.g. 1 set language character set, e.g. 2 thus recognize the special Windows key.) So if you want to reassign a key in Windows you must rewrite that part of Windows that addresses the keyboard. This must be why nearly all users remember the Alt & keypad assignments for non-standard characters.  SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) Or they use a third-party utility. That's the only way to do it, AFAIK. SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User http://grystmill.com/articles/cleanboot.htm http://grystmill.com/articles/security.htm >> I know there are utilities that allow the user to assign key combinations > to [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > remember the Alt & keypad assignments for > non-standard characters. Gary, There needs to be a campaign by computer users to get computer hardware and software companies to make the em dash a regular character with a regular key assignment like any other frequently used punctuation mark. It is ridiculous that the em dash, which is more commonly used than, say, the exclamation mark for most writers, does not have its own key, and furthermore that so many applications cannot even display the em dash! As a result, most online writers use a double hyphen, even in published articles (which of course printed publications do not use--they use the em dash), or worse, they use a single hyphen with spaces around it, or, worse yet, they use a single hyphen with no spaces around it. Larry > Or they use a third-party utility. That's the only way to do it, AFAIK. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > remember the Alt & keypad assignments for > > non-standard characters. I can't argue that it it would be a good thing. You want to do the leg work, I'll sign the petition, ,s>. Fact is, Word, and I think WordPerfect, will automatically convert a double-hyphen into an em-dash. Close as they've come to accomodating us em-dash users. For now, though, the third-party key re-assigners, or Franc's method for editing the keyboard files, are what you have to work with. One way you *can* directly impact the design of future word-processors, etc., is to join the various beta programs. That is where user input into design specs gets listened to. Whether or not it is implemented would depend on the demand, but that is where such demands are listened to. SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User http://grystmill.com/articles/cleanboot.htm http://grystmill.com/articles/security.htm > Gary, > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >> > remember the Alt & keypad assignments for >> > non-standard characters. Would somebody tell me what an em dash is? I'm a little dense today. Thanks. Jack -- typographically, a dash as wide as the widest character in any typeface, the capital M A measurement that varies with the type face and font size, an em is always larger than a normal hyphen, (which is as wide as the average character width). used to signify break or change in thought, parenthesis, list items etc Signature- Adaware http://www.lavasoft.de spybot http://www.safer-networking.org AVG free antivirus http://www.grisoft.com Etrust/Vet/CA.online Antivirus scan http://www3.ca.com/securityadvisor/virusinfo/scan.aspx Super Antispyware http://www.superantispyware.com/ Panda online AntiVirus scan http://www.activescan.com Panda online AntiSpyware Scan http://www.pandasoftware.com/virus_info/spyware/test/ Catalog of removal tools (1) http://www.pandasoftware.com/download/utilities/ Catalog of removal tools (2) http://www3.ca.com/securityadvisor/newsinfo/collateral.aspx?CID=40387 Trouble Shooting guide to Windows http://mvps.org/winhelp2002/ Blocking Unwanted Parasites with a Hosts file http://mvps.org/winhelp2002/hosts.htm Cool Web Shredder http://www.trendmicro.com/cwshredder/ links provided as a courtesy, read all instructions on the pages before use Grateful thanks to the authors/webmasters _ > > Would somebody tell me what an em dash is? I'm a little dense today. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > -- And then there's the en dash, <s>. SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User http://grystmill.com/articles/cleanboot.htm http://grystmill.com/articles/security.htm > typographically, a dash as wide as the widest character in any typeface, > the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> >> -- The em dash is used to indicate a sudden break in thought: They came and saw-but they did not conquer. People often use the double hyphen instead of the em dash: They came and saw--but they did not conquer. The double hyphen is used with Courier font (which cannot properly print the em dash) and also is used very commonly online because of the problem I described in my original post. It is almost never used in printed publications. Except for Courier, the double hyphen should never be used, but it is used because the lack of a regular key assignment for it and because in some e-mails it doesn't display properly. > Would somebody tell me what an em dash is? I'm a little dense today. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > -- My sample of em dash did not work well in the sent message, at least as viewed in my computer. Instead of looking like an em dash, it looks like a hyphen, though when I was drafting the message it looked correct. I don't know why that happened. In fact I've never seen that happen before. > The em dash is used to indicate a sudden break in thought: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > > > -- I think the others have answered your question as well as can be, & I will sign your petition right below Terhune. The purpose of this response is just to see whether I can post an em dash using OE, which is the 3rd of these, all got from "START button, Run, Charmap"... - – —. SignatureThanks or Good Luck, There may be humor in this post, and, Naturally, you will not sue, should things get worse after this, PCR pcrrcp@netzero.net | My sample of em dash did not work well in the sent message, at least as | viewed in my computer. Instead of looking like an em dash, it looks like a [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] | > > | > > -- >My sample of em dash did not work well in the sent message, at least as >viewed in my computer. Instead of looking like an em dash, it looks like a >hyphen, though when I was drafting the message it looked correct. I don't >know why that happened. In fact I've never seen that happen before. It *is* a hyphen. When I save your text to a file and view it using Debug or Edit, the "-" character displays as 2Dh or 45 dec, not 97h or 151 dec. >> The em dash is used to indicate a sudden break in thought: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> They came and saw--but they did not conquer. - Franc Zabkar SignaturePlease remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. You're right. This is bizarre. It was an em dash (asc 0151) in the e-mail I drafted, then after it was sent to the group it turned into a hyphen (asc 45). > >My sample of em dash did not work well in the sent message, at least as > >viewed in my computer. Instead of looking like an em dash, it looks like a [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > - Franc Zabkar >You're right. This is bizarre. It was an em dash (asc 0151) in the e-mail >I drafted, then after it was sent to the group it turned into a hyphen (asc >45). If I paste the em dash from a Windows app into a DOS box, then it displays as an underscore (ASC 95 dec). If I use Alt+151 rather than Alt+0151, then the resultant character (ASC 151) displays the same way in a DOS box as it does in Windows. An Alt+0151 in Notepad displays as a black square, probably due to the font. In your case the problem appears to be that you are now posting using the following setting ... charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ... whereas in your initial post you used ... charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 7-bit encoding allows for only 128 characters, therefore character # 151 would need to be approximated by its closest 7-bit "equivalent". Well, that's how it looks to me, anyway. - Franc Zabkar SignaturePlease remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. This was not a fluke. I've tried it again and the em dash again turns into a hyphen. Em dash: To be or not to be-that is the question. I typed the above as an em dash and it displayed as such. When I looked at it in the Outbox in OE it had changed into a hyphen. It must be some odd thing happening with my computer. > My sample of em dash did not work well in the sent message, at least as > viewed in my computer. Instead of looking like an em dash, it looks like a [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > > > > > -- > The em dash is used to indicate a sudden break in thought: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > They came and saw--but they did not conquer. I think this looks strange without any spaces. Makes me think, what is "saw-but" / "saw--but"? Shall it really be like that? I think that with spaces looks better, like: I'm staying out of this -- now, here's my opinion. > The double hyphen is used with Courier font (which cannot properly print the > em dash) and also is used very commonly online because of the problem I > described in my original post. It is almost never used in printed > publications. Except for Courier, the double hyphen should never be used, > but it is used because the lack of a regular key assignment for it and > because in some e-mails it doesn't display properly. Why is Courier special? Do you really mean "Except for Courier, ..." or rather "Except when using non-proportional (fixed-width) fonts, ..."? SignatureNah-ah, i'm staying out of this -- now, here's my opinion. Please followup in the newsgroup. E-mail address is invalid due to spam-control. Whether or not to put spaces around the em dash is a matter of choice. Go to the library and look at several books and you'll see it's done both ways. I personally prefer it without spaces. > > The em dash is used to indicate a sudden break in thought: > > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Do you really mean "Except for Courier, ..." or rather "Except when > using non-proportional (fixed-width) fonts, ..."? > Whether or not to put spaces around the em dash is a matter of choice. Go > to the library and look at several books and you'll see it's done both > ways. > I personally prefer it without spaces. [] Remember that, should your text pass through anything which only allows 7-bit characters (which still applies to some of usenet), leaving out the spaces will result in two words joined by a hyphen. >> Whether or not to put spaces around the em dash is a matter of choice. Go >> to the library and look at several books and you'll see it's done both [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >7-bit characters (which still applies to some of usenet), leaving out the >spaces will result in two words joined by a hyphen. As I've pointed out elsewhere, the OP has switched to 7-bit encoding after initially posting with 8-bit encoding. Could that be his problem? - Franc Zabkar SignaturePlease remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. I don't understand the 7 bit, 8 bit coding issues, but if Franc is referring to my changing from quotable printable to none, as was requested of me, I did experiment in switching back to quotable printable, and that did not fix it the problem of em dash changing into hyphen. Perhaps this problem has always existed in news messages, and I wasn't aware of it because I had not used em dashes in those messages before this. > >> Whether or not to put spaces around the em dash is a matter of choice. Go > >> to the library and look at several books and you'll see it's done both [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > - Franc Zabkar I missed your point before, Ok, I'll try it with flanking spaces: To be or not to be — that is the question. Here again for comparison I'm doing it without spaces. To be or not to be—that is the question. > > Whether or not to put spaces around the em dash is a matter of choice. Go > > to the library and look at several books and you'll see it's done both [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 7-bit characters (which still applies to some of usenet), leaving out the > spaces will result in two words joined by a hyphen. Now it's working both with flanking spaces and without. Oh gosh ... > I missed your point before, Ok, I'll try it with flanking spaces: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > To be or not to be—that is the question. >Now it's working both with flanking spaces and without. Oh gosh ... That's because you've reverted to 8-bit encoding. >> I missed your point before, Ok, I'll try it with flanking spaces: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> To be or not to bethat is the question. - Franc Zabkar SignaturePlease remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. All I've done is kept the news message Sending format, Plain message format as "None" (instead of quotable printable), which is what I changed it to a week ago in response to a request. The setting was "none" when this problem appeared a couple of days ago and it is "none" now that the problem has gone away. Unless I've completely lost track of things, which is, ah, entirely possible ... > >Now it's working both with flanking spaces and without. Oh gosh ... > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > - Franc Zabkar >All I've done is kept the news message Sending format, Plain message format >as "None" (instead of quotable printable), which is what I changed it to a >week ago in response to a request. The setting was "none" when this problem >appeared a couple of days ago and it is "none" now that the problem has gone >away. Unless I've completely lost track of things, which is, ah, entirely >possible ... I don't use OE, so I can't advise you. All I can do is to show you what your messsages look like in the Google Groups archives. BTW, now you've reverted to 7-bits. :-) 7-bit, charset="iso-8859-1" http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/msg/17aa6fe b6a51f35b?dmode=source&hl=en 8-bit, charset="Windows-1252" http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/msg/5f105e0 9f3d78646?dmode=source&hl=en >> >Now it's working both with flanking spaces and without. Oh gosh ... >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> >> - Franc Zabkar - Franc Zabkar SignaturePlease remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. I think you must inadvertently have switched from MIME to Uuencode at... "OE, Tools, Options, Send tab, News Plain Text Settings button". When I am set to MIME, I can send that big em dash. But, now at Uuencode, it is squashed after it is sent... —..., though it looked just fine before! Sounds like Zabcar has it right, that it has to do with the number of encoding bits. I am pleased fiddling with kbdus.kbd, as he also instructed, seems to have solved your original problem across applications. SignatureThanks or Good Luck, There may be humor in this post, and, Naturally, you will not sue, should things get worse after this, PCR pcrrcp@netzero.net | All I've done is kept the news message Sending format, Plain message format | as "None" (instead of quotable printable), which is what I changed it to a [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] | > | > - Franc Zabkar Oops, that wasn't it! It works at Uuencode too! But I swear it DIDN'T in an E-Mail I sent to myself! Before that, it worked at MIME, None, in this NG. Now, I'll try at Quoted Printable, which is the other one you mentioned... — - ... If the 1st is large, I can't figure what the problem was. SignatureThanks or Good Luck, There may be humor in this post, and, Naturally, you will not sue, should things get worse after this, | I think you must inadvertently have switched from MIME to Uuencode at... | "OE, Tools, Options, Send tab, News Plain Text Settings button". [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] | | > | | > - Franc Zabkar >Oops, that wasn't it! It works at Uuencode too! But I swear it DIDN'T in an E-Mail I sent to myself! Before that, it worked at MIME, None, in this NG. Now, I'll try at Quoted Printable, which is the other one you mentioned... > - >... If the 1st is large, I can't figure what the problem was. I think you had it right in your first post to this thread. http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/msg/7b5e5cb 857a196a6?dmode=source&hl=en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/msg/5d0fa06 2f2de7963?dmode=source&hl=en no data http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/msg/cfc894c 7f85ab07d?dmode=source&hl=en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable After examining my own headers, it appears that the same thing is happening to me, ie my encoding is changing automatically from 7-bit to 8-bit. I notice that my newsreader, Agent, gives me the following options: 7bit/8bit Quoted Printable (MIME) Base 64 This URL ... http://cit.cornell.edu/computer/elist/text/outlook-express4.html ... may give us a clue as to what is happening: "While still in the "Send" tab, Uncheck 'Reply to messages using the format in which they were sent' " And that appears to be it, ie my encoding format changes in response to yours, and yours to mine. I think JPG's post gives a reason for this. He says that certain Usenet pathways are limited to 7-bit. Maybe he can elaborate? - Franc Zabkar SignaturePlease remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. | >Oops, that wasn't it! It works at Uuencode too! But I swear it DIDN'T in an E-Mail I sent to myself! Before that, it worked at MIME, None, in this NG. Now, I'll try at Quoted Printable, which is the other one you mentioned... | >— - | >... If the 1st is large, I can't figure what the problem was. | | I think you had it right in your first post to this thread. http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/msg/7b5e5cb 857a196a6?dmode=source&hl=en | MIME-Version: 1.0 | Content-Type: text/plain; | charset="Windows-1252" | Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit That one was MIME, None. I believe "Allow 8-bit characters in headers" was unchecked, as it is now when I bolt MIME. Definitely, "Reply to messages using the format in which they were sent'" was already unchecked. So, that doesn't seem to be the cause of squashed em dashes— I was replying to Larry! http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/msg/5d0fa06 2f2de7963?dmode=source&hl=en | no data That one was Uuencode. Em dashes show up fine for me viewing it here in this NG using OE. Also, it shows well at that Google page. http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/msg/cfc894c 7f85ab07d?dmode=source&hl=en | MIME-Version: 1.0 | Content-Type: text/plain; | charset="Windows-1252" | Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This one is what it says— MIME, Quoted Printable. It shows up fine using OE in this NG. It seems to be a mess at the Google page, though...!... .....Quote the Google page...... Oops, that wasn't it! It works at Uuencode too! But I swear it DIDN'T in = an E-Mail I sent to myself! Before that, it worked at MIME, None, in = this NG. Now, I'll try at Quoted Printable, which is the other one you = mentioned... =97 - ... If the 1st is large, I can't figure what the problem was.=20 --=20 ......EOQ the Goog;e page............... Looks like Google can't handle it! | After examining my own headers, it appears that the same thing is | happening to me, ie my encoding is changing automatically from 7-bit | to 8-bit. I've looked at all your posts in this thread & could not find one in which you posted an em dash. | I notice that my newsreader, Agent, gives me the following options: | [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] | "While still in the "Send" tab, Uncheck 'Reply to messages using the | format in which they were sent' " I was already unchecked. | And that appears to be it, ie my encoding format changes in response | to yours, and yours to mine. Yet, I got my em dash responding to Larry who could not... news:uNZ8jb4%23GHA.896@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl ...& his Properties showed... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit | I think JPG's post gives a reason for this. He says that certain | Usenet pathways are limited to 7-bit. Maybe he can elaborate? I don't know. How could Google sometimes get it right & sometimes wrong? It seems to do with Quoted Printable, which even Larry himself seemed to suspect— maybe it's a combo of Usenet & Quoted Printable that won't work! | - Franc Zabkar >| After examining my own headers, it appears that the same thing is >| happening to me, ie my encoding is changing automatically from 7-bit >| to 8-bit. > >I've looked at all your posts in this thread & could not find one in >which you posted an em dash. Here's my test post (8-bit): http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/msg/265bc57 a45151370?dmode=source&hl=en >| I notice that my newsreader, Agent, gives me the following options: >| [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >| And that appears to be it, ie my encoding format changes in response >| to yours, and yours to mine. On closer examination I found at least one case where Agent responded with 8 bits to Larry's 7 bits, and one where it responded with 7 bits to Larry's 8. :-( >Yet, I got my em dash responding to Larry who could not... > news:uNZ8jb4%23GHA.896@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >| I think JPG's post gives a reason for this. He says that certain >| Usenet pathways are limited to 7-bit. Maybe he can elaborate? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >suspect maybe it's a combo of Usenet & Quoted Printable that won't >work! AFAICS quoted printable should always work because it is designed to send 8-bit characters through a 7-bit gateway. I suspect that a post does not always follow the same path to the news server and hence may not always be able to avoid 7-bit gateways, in which case it is down-converted from 8 to 7 bits at these points. As for Google getting it wrong, I don't think so. According to Agent's help docs, quoted printable "uses only 7 bits to encode 8-bit characters. Thus, information won't be lost when messages are transferred via 7-bit gateways". What you are seeing in Google instead of the em dash is "=97", ie 97 hex or 151 dec. When displaying a message on your monitor, OE probably converts the "=97" to an em dash, whereas at Google you are seeing the raw message. My newsreader allows me to "Display as raw message" or "Display as plain text". Perhaps OE has a similar option? I found these articles helpful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quoted-printable http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIME#Content-Transfer-Encoding - Franc Zabkar SignaturePlease remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. >| After examining my own headers, it appears that the same thing is >| happening to me, ie my encoding is changing automatically from 7-bit >| to 8-bit. > >I've looked at all your posts in this thread & could not find one in >which you posted an em dash. Here's my test post (8-bit): http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/msg/265bc57 a45151370?dmode=source&hl=en >| I notice that my newsreader, Agent, gives me the following options: >| [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >| And that appears to be it, ie my encoding format changes in response >| to yours, and yours to mine. On closer examination I found at least one case where Agent responded with 8 bits to Larry's 7 bits, and one where it responded with 7 bits to Larry's 8. :-( >Yet, I got my em dash responding to Larry who could not... > news:uNZ8jb4%23GHA.896@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >| I think JPG's post gives a reason for this. He says that certain >| Usenet pathways are limited to 7-bit. Maybe he can elaborate? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >suspect maybe it's a combo of Usenet & Quoted Printable that won't >work! AFAICS quoted printable should always work because it is designed to send 8-bit characters through a 7-bit gateway. I suspect that a post does not always follow the same path to the news server and hence may not always be able to avoid 7-bit gateways, in which case it is down-converted from 8 to 7 bits at these points. As for Google getting it wrong, I don't think so. According to Agent's help docs, quoted printable "uses only 7 bits to encode 8-bit characters. Thus, information won't be lost when messages are transferred via 7-bit gateways". What you are seeing in Google instead of the em dash is "=97", ie 97 hex or 151 dec. When displaying a message on your monitor, OE probably converts the "=97" to an em dash, whereas at Google you are seeing the raw message. My newsreader allows me to "Display as raw message" or "Display as plain text". Perhaps OE has a similar option? I found these articles helpful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quoted-printable http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIME#Content-Transfer-Encoding - Franc Zabkar SignaturePlease remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. >| After examining my own headers, it appears that the same thing is >| happening to me, ie my encoding is changing automatically from 7-bit >| to 8-bit. > >I've looked at all your posts in this thread & could not find one in >which you posted an em dash. Here's my test post (8-bit): http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/msg/265bc57 a45151370?dmode=source&hl=en >| I notice that my newsreader, Agent, gives me the following options: >| [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >| And that appears to be it, ie my encoding format changes in response >| to yours, and yours to mine. On closer examination I found at least one case where Agent responded with 8 bits to Larry's 7 bits, and one where it responded with 7 bits to Larry's 8. :-( >Yet, I got my em dash responding to Larry who could not... > news:uNZ8jb4%23GHA.896@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >| I think JPG's post gives a reason for this. He says that certain >| Usenet pathways are limited to 7-bit. Maybe he can elaborate? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >suspect maybe it's a combo of Usenet & Quoted Printable that won't >work! AFAICS quoted printable should always work because it is designed to send 8-bit characters through a 7-bit gateway. I suspect that a post does not always follow the same path to the news server and hence may not always be able to avoid 7-bit gateways, in which case it is down-converted from 8 to 7 bits at these points. As for Google getting it wrong, I don't think so. According to Agent's help docs, quoted printable "uses only 7 bits to encode 8-bit characters. Thus, information won't be lost when messages are transferred via 7-bit gateways". What you are seeing in Google instead of the em dash is "=97", ie 97 hex or 151 dec. When displaying a message on your monitor, OE probably converts the "=97" to an em dash, whereas at Google you are seeing the raw message. My newsreader allows me to "Display as raw message" or "Display as plain text". Perhaps OE has a similar option? I found these articles helpful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quoted-printable http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIME#Content-Transfer-Encoding - Franc Zabkar SignaturePlease remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. | >| After examining my own headers, it appears that the same thing is | >| happening to me, ie my encoding is changing automatically from 7-bit [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | | Here's my test post (8-bit): http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/msg/265bc57 a45151370?dmode=source&hl=en Now I see it. It was good... ———---——— (3 em dashes, 3 hyphens, 3 em dashes) ... both at Google & here. (But it wasn't Quoted Printable; it was None.) | >| I notice that my newsreader, Agent, gives me the following options: | >| [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] | with 8 bits to Larry's 7 bits, and one where it responded with 7 bits | to Larry's 8. :-( Interesting. Mine in OE was unchecked for that, anyhow. | >Yet, I got my em dash responding to Larry who could not... | > news:uNZ8jb4%23GHA.896@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] | AFAICS quoted printable should always work because it is designed to | send 8-bit characters through a 7-bit gateway. QP definitely works here in this NG to handle the em dash. It is a MESS at Google, is all, as I quoted before. | I suspect that a post | does not always follow the same path to the news server and hence may | not always be able to avoid 7-bit gateways, in which case it is | down-converted from 8 to 7 bits at these points. I lean against it being a path problem because, of the bundle I've seen now at Google, it is only the QP that went bad. Why have none of the others encountered a bad path? | As for Google getting it wrong, I don't think so. According to Agent's | help docs, quoted printable "uses only 7 bits to encode 8-bit | characters. Thus, information won't be lost when messages are | transferred via 7-bit gateways". Google may be having trouble translating it back. | What you are seeing in Google instead | of the em dash is "=97", ie 97 hex or 151 dec. When displaying a | message on your monitor, OE probably converts the "=97" to an em dash, | whereas at Google you are seeing the raw message. It was Google's responsibility to translate it to an em dash, I'm thinking. But I guess I really don't know. Does anyone in the world actually see an em dash on that Google page...?... http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/msg/cfc894c 7f85ab07d?dmode=source&hl=en ...If not, it is Google to blame for sure! | My newsreader allows | me to "Display as raw message" or "Display as plain text". Perhaps OE | has a similar option? I can R-Clk a page & select "View Source", but I doubt that is the same as you mean. It shows me what appears to be HTML code. But that is in IE, not OE. | I found these articles helpful: | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quoted-printable I see it is Quoted Printable that plays with "=codes" such as "=97". And, as you said, 8-bits are encoded to 7-bits, to get through a 7-bit data path. But something has to translate it back at the other end. That is where I still suspect Google is failing. Let me give it one more final chance by posting this one as Quoted Printable, with em dashes... --- ——— --- ..., which are the 3 in the middle. (But I'm recalling Larry's em dashes were showing up as regular dashes. That's a bit different from what's going on at Google. And, by the way, when I send an E-Mail to myself in Quoted Printable or None or Uuencode, em dashes change to regular ones-- & I am unchecked for "Read all messages in plain text".) | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIME#Content-Transfer-Encoding | | - Franc Zabkar OOPS, that wasn't Quoted Printable. This is. ———---——— SignatureThanks or Good Luck, There may be humor in this post, and, Naturally, you will not sue, should things get worse after this, | | | | >| After examining my own headers, it appears that the same thing is [quoted text clipped - 121 lines] | | | | - Franc Zabkar YIKES! NOW I'm seeing em dashes in my posts at Google sent in Quoted Printable... http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/browse_frm/ thread/9729a26d25d7c495/882b4f5ab104b57c?lnk=st&q=Quoted+Printable++PCR&rnum=1&h l=en#882b4f5ab104b57c And one of those is the same post that shows =97's & =20's accessed through the URL you posted... http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/msg/cfc894c 7f85ab07d?dmode=source&hl=en Therefore, I don't know what's going on! Perhaps the URL itself chooses how many bits will be used or the translation of them... ???. Looks like Google itself can handle it, though, when it wants, & is NOT to blame. SignatureThanks or Good Luck, There may be humor in this post, and, Naturally, you will not sue, should things get worse after this, PCR pcrrcp@netzero.net OOPS, that wasn't Quoted Printable. This is. ———---——— SignatureThanks or Good Luck, There may be humor in this post, and, Naturally, you will not sue, should things get worse after this, PCR pcrrcp@netzero.net "PCR" <pcrrcp@netzero.net> wrote in message news:%23vLim6f$GHA.2192@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl... | | On Tue, 31 Oct 2006 18:47:21 -0500, "PCR" <pcrrcp@netzero.net> put | | finger to keyboard and composed: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] | | | | Here's my test post (8-bit): http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/msg/265bc57 a45151370?dmode=source&hl=en | Now I see it. It was good... | ———---——— (3 em dashes, 3 hyphens, 3 em dashes) [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] | thinking. But I guess I really don't know. Does anyone in the world | actually see an em dash on that Google page...?... http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/msg/cfc894c 7f85ab07d?dmode=source&hl=en | ...If not, it is Google to blame for sure! | [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] | | | | - Franc Zabkar >YIKES! NOW I'm seeing em dashes in my posts at Google sent in Quoted >Printable... [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Looks like Google itself can handle it, though, when it wants, & is NOT >to blame. I don't know what's going on, but I've now switched from 7/8 bit to quoted printable and am sending three characters that display as the Euro (Alt+128), British Pound (Alt+163), and Yen (Alt+165) currency symbols when using Courier New font. >£¥ BTW, sorry for my previous multiple posts. I had some strange server issue. It normally takes a minute or two for my post to show up, but after about an hour it still wasn't there in my newsfeed. It turned up the next day, though. Other posts to other NGs went through OK. I wonder if they sometimes get stuck at a 6-bit pathway? :-) - Franc Zabkar SignaturePlease remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. Wonder how the CDO interface handles it....Oh, never mind ;-) SignatureCurt BD-MVBT http://dundats.mvps.org/ http://www.aumha.org/ On Wed, 1 Nov 2006 17:54:53 -0500, "PCR" <pcrrcp@netzero.net> put finger to keyboard and composed: >YIKES! NOW I'm seeing em dashes in my posts at Google sent in Quoted >Printable... [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Looks like Google itself can handle it, though, when it wants, & is NOT >to blame. I don't know what's going on, but I've now switched from 7/8 bit to quoted printable and am sending three characters that display as the Euro (Alt+128), British Pound (Alt+163), and Yen (Alt+165) currency symbols when using Courier New font. ?£¥ BTW, sorry for my previous multiple posts. I had some strange server issue. It normally takes a minute or two for my post to show up, but after about an hour it still wasn't there in my newsfeed. It turned up the next day, though. Other posts to other NGs went through OK. I wonder if they sometimes get stuck at a 6-bit pathway? :-) - Franc Zabkar SignaturePlease remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. Yea, I see you are Quoted Printable in your Properties. Also, I can't put indents on it. Why didn't you try an em dash (—)? But really I am done with this. It's too puzzling! Probably, soon I will give them up— & use double regular dashes, instead. Even Christianson is wishy-washy on whether he wants to deal with it! SignatureThanks or Good Luck, There may be humor in this post, and, Naturally, you will not sue, should things get worse after this, PCR pcrrcp@netzero.net On Wed, 1 Nov 2006 17:54:53 -0500, "PCR" <pcrrcp@netzero.net> put finger to keyboard and composed: >YIKES! NOW I'm seeing em dashes in my posts at Google sent in Quoted >Printable... >http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/browse_frm/ thread/9729a26d25d7c495/882b4f5ab104b57c?lnk=st&q=Quoted+Printa ble++PCR&rnum=1&hl=en#882b4f5ab104b57c >And one of those is the same post that shows =97's & =20's accessed >through the URL you posted... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Looks like Google itself can handle it, though, when it wants, & is NOT >to blame. I don't know what's going on, but I've now switched from 7/8 bit to quoted printable and am sending three characters that display as the Euro (Alt+128), British Pound (Alt+163), and Yen (Alt+165) currency symbols when using Courier New font. €£¥ BTW, sorry for my previous multiple posts. I had some strange server issue. It normally takes a minute or two for my post to show up, but after about an hour it still wasn't there in my newsfeed. It turned up the next day, though. Other posts to other NGs went through OK. I wonder if they sometimes get stuck at a 6-bit pathway? :-) - Franc Zabkar SignaturePlease remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. >Yea, I see you are Quoted Printable in your Properties. Also, I can't >put indents on it. Why didn't you try an em dash ()? AFAICS, the issue involves 8-bit characters so any such character should do. Anyway here are more test characters: £¥ Alt+0151, Alt+0128, Alt+0163, Alt+0165, Alt+0151 ùÇúÑù Alt+151, Alt+128, Alt+163, Alt+165, Alt+151 Just in case they don't arrive as I sent them, the last set of characters look like "uCuNu". >But really I am >done with this. It's too puzzling! Likewise. - Franc Zabkar SignaturePlease remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. Gosh, look at all the trouble I set off. But this just proves my point: the em dash should be a regular character, no different from a comma or a question mark. Larry On Fri, 3 Nov 2006 14:43:54 -0500, "PCR" <pcrrcp@netzero.net> put finger to keyboard and composed: >Yea, I see you are Quoted Printable in your Properties. Also, I can't >put indents on it. Why didn't you try an em dash (-)? AFAICS, the issue involves 8-bit characters so any such character should do. Anyway here are more test characters: -?£¥- Alt+0151, Alt+0128, Alt+0163, Alt+0165, Alt+0151 ùÇúÑù Alt+151, Alt+128, Alt+163, Alt+165, Alt+151 Just in case they don't arrive as I sent them, the last set of characters look like "uCuNu". >But really I am >done with this. It's too puzzling! Likewise. - Franc Zabkar SignaturePlease remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. > Gosh, look at all the trouble I set off. > > But this just proves my point: the em dash should be a regular character, > no different from a comma or a question mark. > > Larry [] As found on any typewriter, of course. >> Gosh, look at all the trouble I set off. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > [] > As found on any typewriter, of course. I don't think Alt-0151 (resulting in — AOT -) is THAT much trouble. Nor is Alt-0191 (¿) for when you need a question mark in a file name. Nor is Alt-0189 for ½. ETC. Ever looked at some other-language keyboard layouts? They are a NIGHTMARE, loaded with key combinations that would not occur to you in your worst nightmares - yet needed for some quite basic (in those languages) letters/symbols. The English layout is simple and effective, as is the language itself. SignatureViolent disagreements and the usual abuse expected and welcomed. On Fri, 3 Nov 2006 14:43:54 -0500, "PCR" <pcrrcp@netzero.net> put finger to keyboard and composed: >Yea, I see you are Quoted Printable in your Properties. Also, I can't >put indents on it. Why didn't you try an em dash (—)? AFAICS, the issue involves 8-bit characters so any such character should do. Anyway here are more test characters: —€£¥— Alt+0151, Alt+0128, Alt+0163, Alt+0165, Alt+0151 ùÇúÑù Alt+151, Alt+128, Alt+163, Alt+165, Alt+151 Just in case they don't arrive as I sent them, the last set of characters look like "uCuNu". PCR: I get the same for those... —€£¥— ùÇúÑù >But really I am >done with this. It's too puzzling! Likewise. PCR: Yea. Let's quit while Larry remains overjoyed with your kbdus.kbd macinations. Larry, it was no trouble, just another riddle of many, probably due to one too many encoding protocols for the NET to deal with. > Would somebody tell me what an em dash is? I'm a little dense today. > > Thanks. > > Jack > ================================= Thanks very much for all of the responses. Jack -- > Would somebody tell me what an em dash is? I'm a little dense today. > > Thanks. > > Jack You could read the first line of the OP's initial post and do what it says, ie hold down the Alt key and press 0 on the numeric keypad, then 1 then 5 then 1, and then release the Alt key. Otherwise go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dash#Em_dash Or go to Start->Run and type "charmap" to launch Character Map. The em dash is directly below the "7", on the 4th row. If Character Map is not installed, go to Control Panel -> Add/Remove Programs -> Windows Setup -> System Tools -> Details. - Franc Zabkar SignaturePlease remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. >I am so tired of having to type Alt+(NUM)0151 whenever I want to type an em >dash in a Windows application such as Outlook Express. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Larry I've done something like this by hacking the appropriate .kbd file. For example, you could use the following command at the DOS prompt to edit your US keyboard definition file: edit /64 %windir%.\system\kbdus.kbd Change both occurrences of the pipe (|) character to Alt+(NUM)0151. Or experiment with one, then the other, then both. Be sure to do this in overstrike mode, not insert mode. A slightly better way would be to have two US keyboards, one standard, the second how you like it. Use Alt+LeftShift to switch between them. That's how I've set up my system (I need to redefine 3 keys). BTW, I *often* use the pipe symbol. It comes in handy in DOS mode for piping the output of one command to the input of another. I also use it for ASCII art. In my case the # character would be more appropriate. I don't use the following product, but it may provide some insight for you: Janko's Keyboard Generator http://solair.eunet.yu/~janko/engdload.htm - Franc Zabkar SignaturePlease remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. Franc, You seem to be telliing me that it's possible to do what I want to do, which others in the group are telling me is not possible. So, are you sure this can be done without causing any unwanted changes in my system? Assuming it is possible, I'm going to need more step by step instructions on how to do it. So far I pasted the code you gave me into the Dos prompt, and that opened an Edit window with a blue background and what looks like two sequences of all the characters produced by the keyboard, including the | character. There is only one instance of | . You tell me to type Alt+(NUM)0151 over the | . Questions: Does Alt+(NUM)0151 look exactly like that? No brackets around it or anything? You say to use overtype not insert. But if I use overtype (whether for typing or pasting), a whole bunch of characters gets wiped out by Alt+(NUM)0151. Thanks, Larry > >I am so tired of having to type Alt+(NUM)0151 whenever I want to type an em > >dash in a Windows application such as Outlook Express. [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > - Franc Zabkar >Franc, > >You seem to be telliing me that it's possible to do what I want to do, which >others in the group are telling me is not possible. So, are you sure this >can be done without causing any unwanted changes in my system? I have created my own Slovenian keyboard layout by modifying a US keyboard definition file. To do this I had to redefine the Q, W, and Y keys as C(h), S(h), and Z(h). The latter correspond to Alt+0200, Alt+0138, and Alt+0142 in the Central European character maps. The reason I chose not to use the standard Slovenian keyboard was because its layout, particularly in relation to punctuation symbols, differs greatly from the US. To make it easy to switch from one to the other, I added the three missing characters by replacing three letters that were not available in Slovenian, namely Q,W,Y (I could also have used X). >Assuming it is possible, I'm going to need more step by step instructions on >how to do it. So far I pasted the code you gave me into the Dos prompt, and >that opened an Edit window with a blue background and what looks like two >sequences of all the characters produced by the keyboard, including the | >character. There is only one instance of | . YUIOP{}|ASDFGHJKL:"ZXCVBNM<>?|`1234567890-=QWERTYUIOP[]\ASDFGHJK ^ ^ > You tell me to type >Alt+(NUM)0151 over the | . Yes. >Questions: > >Does Alt+(NUM)0151 look exactly like that? No brackets around it or >anything? No brackets, it just looks like this: ù However, at the bottom of the edit window you should see its correct ASCII value, namely 151. I think the reason it looks different in DOS mode is to do with the encoding format, ie UTF (8-bit) versus Unicode (16-bit). Just type Alt+0151 at the DOS command line to see what I mean, or type Alt+151 then Alt+0151 in Windows. >You say to use overtype not insert. But if I use overtype (whether for >typing or pasting), a whole bunch of characters gets wiped out by >Alt+(NUM)0151. I'm just basically warning you not to add to the size of the file. Type the Insert key until you see a block cursor rather than an underline cursor. Use the arrow keys to position your cursor over the pipe character and then type Alt+0151 (or Alt+151). Save the file and reboot. I suggest you make a backup of the original file in case you make a mistake. >Thanks, >Larry [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] >> >> - Franc Zabkar - Franc Zabkar SignaturePlease remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. Thanks, but you're giving me some contradictory instructions here. 1. I asked you: > >Does Alt+(NUM)0151 look exactly like that? No brackets around it or > >anything? And you answered: > No brackets, it just looks like this: ù Huh? 2. You told me to type > >Alt+(NUM)0151 But then you tell me to type: > Alt+0151 (or Alt+151) Thanks. Larry > >Franc, > > [quoted text clipped - 104 lines] > > - Franc Zabkar Sorry, I see what you mean. When you said "type Alt+0151" I thought you meant type the characters "Alt+0151", but you meant hold down Alt and type 0151. It's too late to mess with this furrther tonight. But I've backed up the file and I'll try this tomorrow. > Thanks, but you're giving me some contradictory instructions here. > [quoted text clipped - 137 lines] > > > > - Franc Zabkar >Sorry, I see what you mean. When you said "type Alt+0151" I thought you >meant type the characters "Alt+0151", but you meant hold down Alt and type >0151. > >It's too late to mess with this furrther tonight. But I've backed up the >file and I'll try this tomorrow. Here, I've done it for you: http://www.users.on.net/~fzabkar/kbdus.kbd - Franc Zabkar SignaturePlease remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. Franc, Here it is-my own customized em dash-which I just typed by pressing Shift+\ and there it is Fantastic. No more hassling with Alt+0151. Of course I've saved the original file in case I want to go back to it. And if I want to type the "pipe," I just do Alt+124 et voila: | . But I'd say in the last eight years I've typed the pipe maybe 20 times, and typed an em dash many thousands of times. I've tested it in every application. Thank you for this. Larry > >Sorry, I see what you mean. When you said "type Alt+0151" I thought you > >meant type the characters "Alt+0151", but you meant hold down Alt and type [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > - Franc Zabkar Except, for some reason, as we discussed before, the em dashes in a news message are being changed into hyphens when I send them. (This only happens in unformatted plain text news messages.) > Franc, > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > > > - Franc Zabkar > Except, for some reason, as we discussed before, the em dashes in a news > message are being changed into hyphens when I send them. (This only > happens > in unformatted plain text news messages.) [] Plain text doesn't include any character beyond 127 (and 127 is the delete character, the proper one that is). Some systems may allow characters beyond that to pass through, but there's no guarantee that they will be displayed on someone else's machine as the same character: beyond 127, at least in "plain text", there is no standard. There is some uniformity if your message system specifies a certain extended character set - _if_ that character set is implemented at the remote end; it's unwise to assume that for usenet, though. The em dash (which I've _never_ felt the need for - but horses for courses!) is fine in a controlled environment, where you know everyone is using the same software, or at least the same character sets and 8-bit encoding. Otherwise, it joins the pound sign, all the accented/umlauted letters, and so on, in being fragile. Well, it's not just a matter of personal preference. In the United States at least, any print book or magazine uses the em dash as a standard punctuation. It is used very frequently. That is why it is maddening that it is not a standard character with its own key. But Gary Terhune and a couple of others here have said they support my idea for a request to Microsoft to address this, and I will write up some letter soon. > > Except, for some reason, as we discussed before, the em dashes in a news > > message are being changed into hyphens when I send them. (This only [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Otherwise, it joins the pound sign, all the accented/umlauted letters, and > so on, in being fragile. The issue is *much* larger than just Microsoft. If you're going to start a campaign, please include Apple and IBM, at *least*, and preferably blanket the entire industry. SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User http://grystmill.com/articles/cleanboot.htm http://grystmill.com/articles/security.htm > Well, it's not just a matter of personal preference. In the United States > at least, any print book or magazine uses the em dash as a standard [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >> and >> so on, in being fragile. > Well, it's not just a matter of personal preference. In the United States > at least, any print book or magazine uses the em dash as a standard [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > letter > soon. [] Yes, any _print_ book. Any print book is also likely to have bold, underlining, italic, and various font styles and sizes. (Colours too, if you're including magazines.) The original 126-32=94 character set is the _American_ standard code for information interchange ... (well, there are others [E. b. c. d. i. c. anyone?], but A. s. c. i. i. I think predates Microsoft ...) [FWIW, various length dashes are used _in print_ here in the UK too.] Franc, Would the file you gave me work with any version of Windows? Larry > >Sorry, I see what you mean. When you said "type Alt+0151" I thought you > >meant type the characters "Alt+0151", but you meant hold down Alt and type [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > - Franc Zabkar >Franc, > >Would the file you gave me work with any version of Windows? > >Larry I know that the same .kbd file works in Win95 but I don't know about any other versions. This URL suggests that the same file would also work in Win ME but not in NT/2000/XP: http://solair.eunet.yu/~janko/engdload.htm ==================================================================== Q: Can Janko's Keyboard Generator for Windows 95/98/Me be used for Windows NT/2000/XP keyboard layouts? A: The product deliberately named Janko's Keyboard Generator for Windows 95/98/Me can't be used for Windows NT/2000/XP keyboard layouts. Reasons: The differences are extremely big, since Win 9x/Me has 16-bit keyboard code using codepages, and Win NT/2000/XP uses 32-bit code using Unicode. KBD files are practically "flat" files produced by assembler (linker does not add anything to such produced files), Win NT/2000/XP keyboard files are in fact DLLs which are produced with a C compiler and linker. ==================================================================== In the case of NT/2000/XP I would try hacking the appropriate DLL file. I'd use a hex editor to search for "QWERTY" and I'd then replace each pipe with an em dash as appropriate. BTW, just to satisfy my own curiosity, here is a test string: --- (3 em dashes, 3 hyphens, 3 em dashes) >> >Sorry, I see what you mean. When you said "type Alt+0151" I thought you >> >meant type the characters "Alt+0151", but you meant hold down Alt and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> >> - Franc Zabkar - Franc Zabkar SignaturePlease remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. Well, then, I might be needing your help again when I move from 98 to XP, or Vista, or whatever they call it. :-) But this is a great improvement: a basic feature I've always needed, and now I have it. As the Australians say, I'm happy as Larry. > >Franc, > > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > - Franc Zabkar >Well, then, I might be needing your help again when I move from 98 to XP, or >Vista, or whatever they call it. :-) I don't have any experience with XP and I can't see myself migrating to any other MS OS. I think you're going to be on your own. :-( One way to find out which DLL(s) is/are involved is to install international language and keyboard support (via Control Panel Add/Remove Programs ???) and monitor the changes to your system. Otherwise you may be able to view the contents of the appropriate INF file(s). FWIW, the following appear to be the relevant Win98SE INFs: C:\WINDOWS\INF\MULTILNG.INF C:\WINDOWS\INF\MULLANG.INF - Franc Zabkar SignaturePlease remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. Just curious, what OS do you use now, and how do you expect not to have to move eventually to the newer ones? W98-98SE users are pretty rare these days ... Larry > >Well, then, I might be needing your help again when I move from 98 to XP, or > >Vista, or whatever they call it. :-) [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > - Franc Zabkar >Just curious, what OS do you use now, and how do you expect not to have to >move eventually to the newer ones? > >W98-98SE users are pretty rare these days ... I'm presently using W98SE and will probably move to Linux. - Franc Zabkar SignaturePlease remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. > Just curious, what OS do you use now, and how do you expect not to have to > move eventually to the newer ones? > > W98-98SE users are pretty rare these days ... [] Considering where you're posting this, are you sure? (FWIW, of the people I've brought into computing ... Tom is on 98, Peter is on 98 on one PC and XP on the new laptop, Les ditto, Kath on 98, Sally on 2000, Alan on 98, John on 98 ... I see a pattern emerging; maybe I just talk to old fogies.) Well, I'm on 98 too, but I thought that was because I was the biggest procrastinator on the planet. It seems to me that XP is really needed now. For example, many web sites are very loaded with graphics and stuff and take a long time to load. I gather that XP handles that better. It would be interesting how many users are still on 98. > > Just curious, what OS do you use now, and how do you expect not to > > have to move eventually to the newer ones? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > 98, Sally on 2000, Alan on 98, John on 98 ... I see a pattern > emerging; maybe I just talk to old fogies.) >Well, I'm on 98 too, but I thought that was because I was the biggest >procrastinator on the planet. It seems to me that XP is really needed now. >For example, many web sites are very loaded with graphics and stuff and take >a long time to load. I gather that XP handles that better. I can't see how. AFAICS the speed of loading of web content is determined by your connection speed, while the rendering of this content would be determined by your CPU, memory, and video card. XP may appear to handle the job better than W98 simply because it demands faster hardware. - Franc Zabkar SignaturePlease remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. [] >>sequences of all the characters produced by the keyboard, including the | >>character. There is only one instance of | . > > YUIOP{}|ASDFGHJKL:"ZXCVBNM<>?|`1234567890-=QWERTYUIOP[]\ASDFGHJK > ^ ^ [] Aargh, fonts strike again: as I see that in Outlook Express, which seems to be using Times New Roman for the moment, the two carets aren't under the | characters: the first one is between I and O, and the second a little to the left of centre of H. By counting spaces, I can see that, with an equispaced font, the first at least would be in the right place. >[] >>>sequences of all the characters produced by the keyboard, including the | [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >By counting spaces, I can see that, with an equispaced font, the first at >least would be in the right place. I plead not guilty. :-) This is how my post looks at Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/msg/85c7230 8a22eec14?dmode=source&hl=en All my messages are composed using a fixed width font (Courier New). I am aware of the distorting effects of proportional fonts because I often post ASCII drawings. AFAICT, your installation of OE appears to be adding a space to the beginning of the "YUIOP" line but not to the following line: http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/msg/1f41dd4 24d8687fb?dmode=source&hl=en OTOH, Larry's version of OE quotes my post correctly: http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/msg/26f75cd 071a6fed3?dmode=source&hl=en With respect, I think your own post best demonstrates why people should avoid using variable width fonts in Usenet. ;-) - Franc Zabkar SignaturePlease remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. [] > With respect, I think your own post best demonstrates why people > should avoid using variable width fonts in Usenet. ;-) [] Couldn't agree more; this isn't my setup! But when you're talking to people who want things like em-dash, any hope of keeping to equispaced fonts is very forlorn ... > I am so tired of having to type Alt+(NUM)0151 whenever I want to type an em > dash in a Windows application such as Outlook Express. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Larry If you select SYMBOL, from the INSERT menu in Word, it has a SPECIAL CHARACTERS tab. Top of that tab it says ALT+CTRL+NUM - gives you an em dash but it only works in Word. Carole |
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