 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Windows Forum / Windows 98 / General Topics / August 2007Cloning Win98FE prior to SE upgrade
While I would like the USB and other upgraded support options of SE, I have been putting off upgrading to SE on an older laptop, because, 1.) the FE config is running great & 2.) if anything goes wrong with the upgrade, I don't look forward to reinstalling FE with all the fixes. I don't have an external HDD or a CD burner on the system, so I came up with this plan to clone the C: drive: Remove the HDD from the laptop and install it in a USB external enclosure. Connect the enclosure to my XP system. Run Ghost to clone the C: drive to an external HDD attached to the XP system. Reinstall HDD in laptop. Clean install of SE. I would appreciate knowing if this is doable, if there are any 'gotchas' waiting for me along this path, and if there are any other helpful hints and advice from the experts that will help me make sure I have a clone that can be reloaded by reversing the process and restore FE. Thanks in advance for your time. Pointing me to relevent info would also be appreciated. > While I would like the USB and other upgraded support options of SE, I > have been putting off upgrading to SE on an older laptop, because, 1.) [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Pointing me to relevent info would also be appreciated. As long as Ghost recognizes the external USB drive ...you should be OK but heck, if your present installation is working fine...why bother to go with SE??? Were I going to upgrade (clean install) the OS...I'd probably go with Win2k...(If your machine specs can handle it) that is at least a still supported OS > but heck, if your present installation is working fine...why bother to go > with SE??? The only reasons are to get SE's USB and device driver support for those hardware devices (like an external HDD, a DVD burner, USB Flash Drive, etc., etc., etc.) and the software apps whose specs state the minimum OS is Win98SE. Other than that, I'm good with FE. > Were I going to upgrade (clean install) the OS...I'd probably go with > Win2k...(If your machine specs can handle it) That is the second restrictor. With 96 MB of RAM, a Pentium 3 processor and a 4GB HDD, it will be struggling to run Win98SE. And I'm not putting any money into this old beater. Got time, but no money. > that is at least a still supported OS- Yeah, but I got you guys, plus a copy of SE. It's a no-brainer, if it works. Thanks for your thoughts. Hi Teflon, You shouldn't have any problem running SE. I ran it for several years with a Pentium Overdrive processor @ 100 MHz (basically a souped-up 486), and 32 MB RAM. It wasn't blazing fast, but it worked very well.  SignatureHTH, Curt Windows Support Center www.aumha.org Practically Nerded,... http://dundats.mvps.org/Index.htm | > but heck, if your present installation is working fine...why bother to go | > with SE??? [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] | | Thanks for your thoughts. >> but heck, if your present installation is working fine...why bother to go >> with SE??? [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Thanks for your thoughts. Good idea to backup of course...but an upgrade from win98 to win98se should not cause any problems... as to win2k...though a P-III is fine...yes, you'd really need more ram... \so win98se should be fine Remember philo that each operating system has its own uses. Windows 2000 is much more business orientated and centered around NT technology as compared to Windows 98 Second Edition which is consumer orientated and based on 9x technology although it was a big hit with businesses also much to the surprise of Microsoft. This is a key in realizing why there is still so much potential to the 9x source code. I hope eventually a combination product or perhaps another 9x product will come out to the marketplace. I am working on this but it will most likely take years to see the light of day if it happens at all. > >> but heck, if your present installation is working fine...why bother to go > >> with SE??? [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > as to win2k...though a P-III is fine...yes, you'd really need more ram... > \so win98se should be fine > Remember philo that each operating system has its own uses. Windows 2000 is > much more business orientated and centered around NT technology as compared [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > this but it will most likely take years to see the light of day if it happens > at all. True Win98 and Win2k are two entirely different operating systems...but because the use essentially the same GUI... anyone who can use win98 should have no problems using Win2k. Though, through the years I've upgraded my hardware...I eventually switched , for the most part, to Win2k simply because it's more stable than win98...however I never wanted to give up win98 entirely as some of the older apps and dos apps run better on win98 for sure. With my last hardware upgrade...win98 did not survive. I could not get it to work with my new equipment. What I did was to clone it to another drive...then put that into an AMD-550 that has removable drive kits installed. In a short time I had my old win98 again up and running. Because of the removable drive kits I must have about 20 old operating systems saved... going back to win3x, OS2, NT3.5 etc. I wouldn't call the GUIs the same, or even similar. No more so than WinXP's "Classic" view. Sure, they *look* similar, but actually using those GUIs is quite different. Win2K is MUCH closer to WinXP in that sense. SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User www.grystmill.com >> Remember philo that each operating system has its own uses. Windows 2000 > is [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > removable drive kits I must have about 20 old operating systems saved... > going back to win3x, OS2, NT3.5 etc. > I wouldn't call the GUIs the same, or even similar. No more so than WinXP's > "Classic" view. Sure, they *look* similar, but actually using those GUIs is > quite different. Win2K is MUCH closer to WinXP in that sense. I think that's what I meant. Though I'm sure the coding for win98's GUI as compared to Win2k are different... I doubt if anyone switching from win98 to Win2k would have a problem with usage. As to XP...Win2k and XP are pretty much the same OS ...other than activation of course... the main advantage to XP is the greater driver base. > I wouldn't call the GUIs the same, or even similar. Who even knows what's what, and/or where from? For instance, the Product Name on Windows 98's EXPLORER.EXE file, [and on a number of other files also], is Microsoft(R) Windows NT(R) Operating System. NT itself is an amalgam of code from MANY sources, including FreeBSD and Digital's VMS. Most of NT's lead developers, including its chief architect, came from Digital. So, you could argue that 98 was based on technology developed in the 70's, and not be too far off the mark, if at all....... Signature"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." ROFL! Sounds like a great philosophy for a politician. Sure works in America, <g>. SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User www.grystmill.com I think 98SE is really stable if the user knows how to configure it properly and what they are doing. The only issue may be poor drivers that can be written for some of the hardware that I have run into. Another issue may be problems with dlls if they get very mixed up but it really is more stable than people give it credit in my opinion. > > Remember philo that each operating system has its own uses. Windows 2000 > is [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > removable drive kits I must have about 20 old operating systems saved... > going back to win3x, OS2, NT3.5 etc. Don't know why you'd want to clone the HD. Or do you mean "image"? Cloning creates a partition or disk that is exactly the same as the original, right down to being bootable (though not usually from an external drive.) What you want it to create an image file that can be restored to the original HD if something goes wrong. If you already have Ghost, fine, but I prefer Acronis True Image. Upgrading from FE to SE is *usually* not problematic. But with an image you can restore if necessary, you've covered your butt just fine. If you still feel nervous, create TWO image files. One will fit on a DVD (much easier to restore, don't have to swap the HD again), the other you can store on the external HD in case the DVD breaks or is otherwise corrupted. SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User www.grystmill.com > While I would like the USB and other upgraded support options of SE, I > have been putting off upgrading to SE on an older laptop, because, 1.) [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Pointing me to relevent info would also be appreciated. If you already have Ghost, fine, but I prefer Acronis >True Image. I'm pretty sure True Image won't work with the low amount of RAM he has in his system. Ross Same applies to Ghost (more so -- I doubt any recent version of Ghost will run on Win98, period.) Maybe OP already has a legacy copy. However, OP is using a newer XP machine to do the task. If the imaging app needs to run on the Win98 machine, then I'd recommend BootIt NG. SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User www.grystmill.com > If you already have Ghost, fine, but I prefer Acronis >>True Image. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Ross I agree that BING was very useful although I have only used it briefly for a trial period in the past. It looks like a really awesome product. > Same applies to Ghost (more so -- I doubt any recent version of Ghost will > run on Win98, period.) Maybe OP already has a legacy copy. However, OP is [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > > > Ross > Same applies to Ghost (more so -- I doubt any recent version of Ghost will > run on Win98, period.) Maybe OP already has a legacy copy. However, OP is > using a newer XP machine to do the task. If the imaging app needs to run on > the Win98 machine, then I'd recommend BootIt NG. Being referred to as OP always makes me think I'm Ron Howard on Mayberry RFD with Andy Griffith (don't I wish). Anyway, thanks for your input. I'm not going to try running Ghost or True Image on the 98FE machine. Since the machine only has a CD ROM drive, and I can't connect an external HDD or DVD burner to that machine, plus the partitioned internal HDD's D: drive is full, the only option I saw to get an 'image / clone' (always got those two confused) of the C: drive was to remove it and use my XP machine's more robust facilities to create that image for backup (fall-back) purposes. I do have both Ghost and True Image, so will try both to create an image on the external HDD, then burn them to DVD. Will have to transfer to several CD's if I do need to fall-back, since the 98 machine only has CD ROM and floppy drives. Would multiple CD's be a problem? Thanks again for your comments and suggestions. One other question, could I install SE over FE and save the effort of reapplying all the MS fixes and reinstalling all the apps? Probably not, or someone probably would have suggested that. Some may consider that to be a really dumb question, but I've found the only really dumb question is the one that isn't asked. (Responses Inline) >> Same applies to Ghost (more so -- I doubt any recent version of Ghost >> will [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Being referred to as OP always makes me think I'm Ron Howard on > Mayberry RFD with Andy Griffith (don't I wish). That image often comes to my mind as well. > Anyway, thanks for your input. I'm not going to try running Ghost or > True Image on the 98FE machine. Since the machine only has a CD ROM [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > more robust facilities to create that image for backup (fall-back) > purposes. One thing about using XP -- when you allow XP to access a partition, it automatically creates a few things that you don't really want or need on your 98 machine. A differently named recycle Bin is one (IIRC, the actual folder represented by the RB is called Recycled in 9x, Recycler in XP.) There are also one or more super-hidden folders containing meta-data that, while causing no problems on 9x, might cause consternation. In some cases, due to security structures in XP, you might find that you CAN'T delete stuff that XP put there. With great care, delete the stuff that XP adds once you've restored the drive to the 98 machine and before upgrading to SE (if you can delete them, of course.) Or, run the imaging program from a bootable utility disk and never boot to XP while the drive is connected. I don't know about Ghost, but I *think* the True Image Home Edition has such capabilities (I use a corporate edition that provides a couple of ways to do this, either using their own bootable CD OS or using Bart's PE.) Or, as I already suggested, you could use BootIt NG. > I do have both Ghost and True Image, so will try both to create an > image on the external HDD, then burn them to DVD. Will have to > transfer to several CD's if I do need to fall-back, since the 98 > machine only has CD ROM and floppy drives. Would multiple CD's be a > problem? Again, I don't know about Ghost, but BING and TrueImage can use multiple CDs. > Thanks again for your comments and suggestions. You're welcome. > One other question, could I install SE over FE and save the effort of > reapplying all the MS fixes and reinstalling all the apps? Probably > not, or someone probably would have suggested that. While a "clean" install is almost always preferred, upgrading from FE to SE is the safest of all Windows OS upgrades. As always, when messing with the OS, you want to immediately go to Windows Updates when you're finished. Note that simply upgrading to SE won't require that you reinstall ALL of the Updates. Many will survive intact, while others that only apply to SE, or that are broken by the upgrade, will need to be installed/reinstalled. Yes, to be honest, I don't completely trust this design to catch the Updates that have been broken, which is why I much prefer clean installs. That and the fact that I actually enjoy installing and configuring Windows and apps, and I always make sure to keep copies of installers and registration info, going back to '96, when I first got seriously involved with computers. In many cases, particularly with purchased apps, I keep multiple copies. Of course, your wife might not be as accomodating as mine when it comes to boxes full of CDs and DVDs. (I also subscribe to MSDN, and that has generated several boxes of disks over the years.) > Some may consider that to be a really dumb question, but I've found > the only really dumb question is the one that isn't asked. Nothing dumb about your questions. It's been a pleasure to answer them. Just hope I didn't go too wrong anywhere, <s>. SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User www.grystmill.com <snipped for length concerns> Hey Gary, I am a technet subscriber and have considered becoming a technet plus subscriber. Is it honesty worth $500? BTW, what did you do to become a MSDN subscriber and what does that offer? In addition, I still have my 98 update cd that has come in very handy to upgrade 98 Second Edition to the B version from the A version. I actually ended up with 2 copies due to a glitch, I think. I ordered one as Dan and another as Daniel and got 2 copies. I ordered a second time because I thought the first order got lost and figured requesting a 2 copy would be the easiest way to make sure I got the cd. Do you know if Microsoft offers that cd anymore for people like the OP that could make it easier to update 98 S.E. to Internet Explorer 6 to allow for use with Windows Update. You also get WMP 9 whether you want it or not. I have never had too much of an issue with WMP 9, personally. Thanks in advance for the replies. I don't know what you mean, "how" did I subscribe to MSDN. I subscribed, period. No, MS does not offer the 98 to 98SE UPDATE CD anymore. You'd have to look around and find someone who has it and make a copy. SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User www.grystmill.com > <snipped for length concerns> > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Thanks > in advance for the replies. Thanks! > I don't know what you mean, "how" did I subscribe to MSDN. I subscribed, > period. No, MS does not offer the 98 to 98SE UPDATE CD anymore. You'd have [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Thanks > > in advance for the replies. |> Same applies to Ghost (more so -- I doubt any recent version of |> Ghost will run on Win98, period.) Maybe OP already has a legacy [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] | more robust facilities to create that image for backup (fall-back) | purposes. Are C:\ & D:\ two partitions on a single master HDD on the Primary IDE connector of the motherboard in the 98FE machine? And is the CD drive connected as a master on the Secondary IDE connector of the motherboard? That's the setup I had! So... a second option is to connect a second HDD as a slave to the first & cut the XP-machine out of the picture altogether! I have a master on how to do that! Probably, when done, your D:partition will become E:partition, if you elect to keep the second HDD permanently installed. | I do have both Ghost and True Image, so will try both to create an | image on the external HDD, then burn them to DVD. Will have to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] | Some may consider that to be a really dumb question, but I've found | the only really dumb question is the one that isn't asked. SignatureThanks or Good Luck, There may be humor in this post, and, Naturally, you will not sue, Should things get worse after this, PCR pcrrcp@netzero.net 1. He probably doesn't want the added expense of another HDD. Then again, sounds like he could use one. Drives are cheap, but I'd want one that's fairly small to avoid possible problems with the mobo supporting large drives. Might be hard to find, and the issues of incompatibility can be EXTREMELY frustrating. 2. Outside of using BING, he has no imaging app that will likely run on the 98 machine, whether it's run from Windows or run from a bootable CD. My ideal solution would be another HD (one that's large enough to hold images of C: and D:) and BING. Partition letters don't enter into the equation, since the machine never needs to be booted with the disk connected. But Teflon sounds like he has a decent plan, already. SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User www.grystmill.com > |> Same applies to Ghost (more so -- I doubt any recent version of > |> Ghost will run on Win98, period.) Maybe OP already has a legacy [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > | Some may consider that to be a really dumb question, but I've found > | the only really dumb question is the one that isn't asked. | 1. He probably doesn't want the added expense of another HDD. Then | again, sounds like he could use one. Drives are cheap, but I'd want | one that's fairly small to avoid possible problems with the mobo | supporting large drives. Might be hard to find, and the issues of | incompatibility can be EXTREMELY frustrating. Understood. Still, Teflon may as well face those issues now-- & not wait for the day an HDD crash puts his head through the ceiling! | 2. Outside of using BING, he has no imaging app that will likely run | on the 98 machine, whether it's run from Windows or run from a | bootable CD. BING is good enough for it, then... http://www.bootitng.com/ 's BootIt NG, has a variety of backup capabilities & works with all OS: Copy partition(s) to HDD, or Image to HDD or to CD or DVD. Create, move, shrink or expand partitions without data loss. Multi-boot too. To install & use beyond 30 days, $34.95. | My ideal solution would be another HD (one that's large enough to hold | images of C: and D:) and BING. Partition letters don't enter into the | equation, since the machine never needs to be booted with the disk | connected. But Teflon sounds like he has a decent plan, already. I guess his plan is a good one, except he'll need that 2nd HDD some day anyhow. And there is the caveat you did bring up about booting XP & the secret folders it may create. | -- | Gary S. Terhune [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] |> PCR |> pcrrcp@netzero.net SignatureThanks or Good Luck, There may be humor in this post, and, Naturally, you will not sue, Should things get worse after this, PCR pcrrcp@netzero.net Us XP users *love* our secrets! SignatureHTH, Curt Windows Support Center www.aumha.org Practically Nerded,... http://dundats.mvps.org/Index.htm || 1. He probably doesn't want the added expense of another HDD. Then || again, sounds like he could use one. Drives are cheap, but I'd want [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] ||> PCR ||> pcrrcp@netzero.net Now, now we can't have "too many secrets" now can we. Anyone catch the movie reference between the quotes. Hint it is an older movie and I think it is from the 1980's. > Us XP users *love* our secrets! > [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > ||> PCR > ||> pcrrcp@netzero.net I don't remember too much from the 1980's Dan. I think I was in the midst of a decade-long blackout. SignatureHTH, Curt Windows Support Center www.aumha.org Practically Nerded,... http://dundats.mvps.org/Index.htm | Now, now we can't have "too many secrets" now can we. Anyone catch the movie | reference between the quotes. Hint it is an older movie and I think it is [quoted text clipped - 85 lines] | > ||> PCR | > ||> pcrrcp@netzero.net You two, eh? I started them with a broken first marriage and no prospects of seeing my daughter again soon, and ended them with my third wife and two more kids SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User www.grystmill.com >I don't remember too much from the 1980's Dan. I think I was in the midst > of a decade-long blackout. Oh yeah...BTDT. I'm actually surprised I managed to live through it. SignatureHTH, Curt Windows Support Center www.aumha.org Practically Nerded,... http://dundats.mvps.org/Index.htm | You two, eh? I started them with a broken first marriage and no prospects of | seeing my daughter again soon, and ended them with my third wife and two | more kids | | >I don't remember too much from the 1980's Dan. I think I was in the midst | > of a decade-long blackout. I'm downright astounded I made it through (of course, the 70s and 90s weren't much different.) I'm paying for it now, though, in spades! SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User www.grystmill.com > Oh yeah...BTDT. I'm actually surprised I managed to live through it. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > midst > | > of a decade-long blackout. I hear ya Gary. I was just thinking I'll bet my ex-wife was glad she bailed when she did!! SignatureHTH, Curt Windows Support Center www.aumha.org Practically Nerded,... http://dundats.mvps.org/Index.htm | I'm downright astounded I made it through (of course, the 70s and 90s | weren't much different.) I'm paying for it now, though, in spades! [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] | > midst | > | > of a decade-long blackout. The movie was Sneakers. > I don't remember too much from the 1980's Dan. I think I was in the midst > of a decade-long blackout. [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > | > ||> PCR > | > ||> pcrrcp@netzero.net | Us XP users *love* our secrets! Christianson! It's an early symptom of XP-irradiation poisoning for XP-users to love secret, irradiated folders & irradiated Recycle Bins! After a while, you will begin to reveal the secrets-- JUST as Terhune has done! | -- | HTH, [quoted text clipped - 99 lines] || PCR || pcrrcp@netzero.net SignatureThanks or Good Luck, There may be humor in this post, and, Naturally, you will not sue, Should things get worse after this, PCR pcrrcp@netzero.net The question that I ask is if you reveal all files in XP Professional does it really reveal all the files or still keep some secret. I have heard with 98SE when you reveal all the files then it actually reveals them. I still see 98SE and the 9x source code as being the superior source code in terms of compatibility and working with APS has shown me how APS still needs and uses old 98SE computers for all of their older software that has cost too much to get rid of. Now if Microsoft would only listen to me and realize they made a mistake by elimating the 9x line then maybe things would be better. I am now using Millenium at work and it is not terrible. It is stupid that Microsoft removed the easy access to MS-DOS from Millenium. In addition, some of the tabing issues and style issues of ME irritate me. I may just have to format the ME machine and install 98 Second Edition on it. I already have some valid and legal copies of 98 Second Edition and could always buy more on Ebay if it becomes necessary. Heck, I think 98 SE still has some life in it left despite the fact that support was elimated by Microsoft on July 11, 2006. 98SE is still a killer operating system in my opinion and the best operating system Microsoft has to offer. XP Professional would be my second choice after 98SE with Microsoft operating systems. > | 1. He probably doesn't want the added expense of another HDD. Then > | again, sounds like he could use one. Drives are cheap, but I'd want [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > |> PCR > |> pcrrcp@netzero.net XP has three possible settings. Hide Hidden files, show Hidden files, and show "super-hidden" files (Protected Operating System files). I leave that last turned of because it makes a lot of things more inconvenient. They often can't be moved or deleted and that makes mass file operations a pain.. As for XP vs 9x, or the prospects of a new 9x... You realize that you're beating a dead horse, right? Ain't never going to happen unless MS for some reason gives away the patent on the 9x kernel and someone else does it. Writing endless paragraphs about it is not going to change the facts (and will prompt me to start ignoring your posts again). You could bury MS in suggestion/complaint letters and it still would never happen. It's like asking Ford to bring back the Econoline. Never going to happen. Get over it. SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User www.grystmill.com > The question that I ask is if you reveal all files in XP Professional does > it [quoted text clipped - 110 lines] >> |> PCR >> |> pcrrcp@netzero.net They don't make Econolines anymore?? SignatureHTH, Curt Windows Support Center www.aumha.org Practically Nerded,... http://dundats.mvps.org/Index.htm | XP has three possible settings. Hide Hidden files, show Hidden files, and | show "super-hidden" files (Protected Operating System files). I leave that [quoted text clipped - 123 lines] | >> |> PCR | >> |> pcrrcp@netzero.net > They don't make Econolines anymore?? > | It's like asking Ford to bring back the Econoline. Never going > | to happen. Get over it. When a 1970 Hemi Cuda goes for over $300k at a Barrett Jackson auction, I bet Chrysler would love to churn out a few more of those... Signature"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." > > > They don't make Econolines anymore?? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > When a 1970 Hemi Cuda goes for over $300k at a Barrett Jackson > auction, I bet Chrysler would love to churn out a few more of those... Something like this ??? http://www.automotivestylings.com/mopar/200x_cuda_front_tb_shaker.htm I always had a hard time deciding which I liked more... A friend's '67 Challenger or another friend's '63.5 Mustang. Note that we spent most of our time driving twisty mountain roads with lots of very big cliffs above and below, pedal to the metal and rear tires almost never sticking except on straight always longer than ~100 yards. SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User www.grystmill.com >> > They don't make Econolines anymore?? >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > http://www.automotivestylings.com/mopar/200x_cuda_front_tb_shaker.htm Yeah, they just changed the name. They are now the E-Series. Bad example. How about the Ranch Wagon, <g>? We called mine "The Tank". SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User www.grystmill.com > They don't make Econolines anymore?? > [quoted text clipped - 162 lines] > | >> |> PCR > | >> |> pcrrcp@netzero.net No, but I did a topless/ragtop model 2008 T-bird the other day. Even had the opera windows in the rear sides. Awesome. Dave > They don't make Econolines anymore?? > [quoted text clipped - 162 lines] > | >> |> PCR > | >> |> pcrrcp@netzero.net LOL. Good hearing from you Dave--long time since I've talked to you. SignatureHTH, Curt Windows Support Center www.aumha.org Practically Nerded,... http://dundats.mvps.org/Index.htm | No, but I did a topless/ragtop model 2008 T-bird the other day. Even had | the opera windows in the rear sides. Awesome. [quoted text clipped - 166 lines] | > | >> |> PCR | > | >> |> pcrrcp@netzero.net Thanks for your input Gary. > XP has three possible settings. Hide Hidden files, show Hidden files, and > show "super-hidden" files (Protected Operating System files). I leave that [quoted text clipped - 123 lines] > >> |> PCR > >> |> pcrrcp@netzero.net | The question that I ask is if you reveal all files in XP Professional | does it really reveal all the files or still keep some secret. Looks like Terhune's lips are loose enough now to reveal the full truth. I'll leave it to him! | I | have heard with 98SE when you reveal all the files then it actually | reveals them. It isn't like XP! Nothing is irradiated! BUT... I have found this Registry key in Win98, named "ShowSuperHidden"... You know, this will allow one to see in Explorer all files that have the Hidden attribute... "START, Settings, Folder Options, View tab", & bolt "Show all files"; may as well uncheck "Hide file extensions..." too. To know whether a file has that attribute, R-Clk it in Explorer, & select "Properties". Alternatively... HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Adv anced ShowAttribCol 0x00000001 (1) <<--DWORD. Value data: 1 ShowSuperHidden 0x00000001 (1) <<--DWORD: 1 PersistBrowsers 0x00000001 (1) <<--DWORD: 1 ShowAttribCol See Attributes listed in Explorer ShowSuperHidden Well, I think I saw my first .htt after setting that. PersistBrowsers An open folder will remain open after a reboot. "ShowAttribCol" has no space in it's name, although it seems that way with this font. (None of them do.) Type a "1" in "Value Data". It won't look like a simple "1" in the right pane. If the column doesn't appear immediately in Explorer, then re-boot. 1. "START button, Run"; Type "RegEdit" & Enter. 2. Click the plus (+) signs in the left pane starting at "HKEY_CURRENT_USER" & ending at "Explorer". 3. Finally, click the key "Advanced" in the left pane. 4. In the right pane, R-Clk an empty area; point to "new"; select "Dword value"; type or paste "ShowAttribCol" & Enter. 5. R-Clk "ShowAttribCol"; select "Modify", enter "1" in Value Data, & click OK. 6. Do the other two, as desired, from step (4). 7. Close RegEdit & reboot, if it doesn't already show in Explorer. | I still see 98SE and the 9x source code as being the | superior source code in terms of compatibility and working with APS | has shown me how APS still needs and uses old 98SE computers for all | of their older software that has cost too much to get rid of. Uhuh. Stick with it, until the day it crumbles to dust! | Now if | Microsoft would only listen to me and realize they made a mistake by | elimating the 9x line then maybe things would be better. Absolutely-- & some day we must storm the castle at Redmond or some other secret, irradiated city! A few more bolts of XP-irradiation-- & Terhune or Christianson may reveal where that is! | I am now | using Millenium at work and it is not terrible. It is stupid that | Microsoft removed the easy access to MS-DOS from Millenium. In | addition, some of the tabing issues and style issues of ME irritate | me. I may just have to format the ME machine and install 98 Second | Edition on it. I hope Win98 drivers will exist for all the peripherials! | I already have some valid and legal copies of 98 | Second Edition and could always buy more on Ebay if it becomes | necessary. Heck, I think 98 SE still has some life in it left | despite the fact that support was elimated by Microsoft on July 11, | 2006. It WILL live, until our fingers fall through mush or dust & break on a solid, wooden desktop! | 98SE is still a killer operating system in my opinion and the | best operating system Microsoft has to offer. Yea! | XP Professional would | be my second choice after 98SE with Microsoft operating systems. I don't know. I have no opinion yet on what's 2nd best. Seems doubtful it could be XP, though! |> | 1. He probably doesn't want the added expense of another HDD. Then |> | again, sounds like he could use one. Drives are cheap, but I'd want [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] |> PCR |> pcrrcp@netzero.net SignatureThanks or Good Luck, There may be humor in this post, and, Naturally, you will not sue, Should things get worse after this, PCR pcrrcp@netzero.net Well, as long as the OP has a hard drive with less than 137 gigabytes for 98 S.E. then Teflon should be fine. I have heard a controller card can allow the OP to get around this barrier but I have not tried it myself. > 1. He probably doesn't want the added expense of another HDD. Then again, > sounds like he could use one. Drives are cheap, but I'd want one that's [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > | Some may consider that to be a really dumb question, but I've found > > | the only really dumb question is the one that isn't asked. There are several other possible incompatibilities and limits besides the one you mention, and no, I'm not going to list them. I'll let someone else do that. SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User www.grystmill.com > Well, as long as the OP has a hard drive with less than 137 gigabytes for > 98 [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] >> > | Some may consider that to be a really dumb question, but I've found >> > | the only really dumb question is the one that isn't asked. > I have heard a controller card can allow the OP to get around > this barrier but I have not tried it myself. Win-98 works fine on a 500 gb SATA hard drive (the largest drive I've tried so far). >> I have heard a controller card can allow the OP to get around >> this barrier but I have not tried it myself. > > Win-98 works fine on a 500 gb SATA hard drive (the largest drive I've > tried so far). Got Millenium and 98SE on a 250GB SATA hard drive. The tricky part was getting a pre-XP era boot manager version of system commander to work on it. Dave For a boot manager, have you tried BootIt NG? SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User www.grystmill.com >>> I have heard a controller card can allow the OP to get around >>> this barrier but I have not tried it myself. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > it. > Dave Wow, did you do anything special to allow for that set up? > > > I have heard a controller card can allow the OP to get around > > this barrier but I have not tried it myself. > > Win-98 works fine on a 500 gb SATA hard drive (the largest drive I've > tried so far). | 1. He probably doesn't want the added expense of another HDD. Then again, | sounds like he could use one. Drives are cheap, but I'd want one that's [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] | equation, since the machine never needs to be booted with the disk | connected. But Teflon sounds like he has a decent plan, already. Excuse the interruption, and not following down through the extremely long thread: One could also use a free program called partition saving, which also happens to be its web link Simple DOS based, saves only the used portions OR whatever portions/elements you want, Can cut the partition into CDROM sized segments.. http://www.partition-saving.com The one issue might be the external hard drive used for saving the partition. Saves the potential issues with XP connection. Though, with careful usage, one could save parts of the partition, burn to CDROM, delete those parts freeing space for the main program areas and system. Then burning those to disk, before doing whatever needs done. SignatureMEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com ________ Sounds really complicated, MEB, <s>. SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User www.grystmill.com > | 1. He probably doesn't want the added expense of another HDD. Then > again, [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > CDROM, delete those parts freeing space for the main program areas and > system. Then burning those to disk, before doing whatever needs done. | Sounds really complicated, MEB, <s>. Ah, not really, its actually rather simple, and easily accomplished. But then I have done this before with small hard drives on laptops and desktops. The prog basicly sets up the method for you, assigning consecutive CD images. Burn them to disk, use the DOS disk [with CDROM support] to boot after you've done what you need, and put the images back on the disk. When done run scandisk to reset the disk, boot to Safe Mode just to check the disk and files, boot normally and its done. If the second partition contains nothing more than storage, its even easier. Though even then, one need only save the storage area first, burn it and then remove it to free space for the actual system files/images. Remember we have to always consider that others may not have extra disks just laying around to use, or a networked computer to transfer the files to. This happens to be a relatively easy way for the normal user to accomplish the task without extra hardware or the need to purchase some program. Of course some of the other imaging progs provide the same basic abilities, but for a free DOS disk ONLY program, partition saving [partsav] seems to work quite well. | > | 1. He probably doesn't want the added expense of another HDD. Then | > again, [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] | > CDROM, delete those parts freeing space for the main program areas and | > system. Then burning those to disk, before doing whatever needs done. SignatureMEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com ________ OK... Sounds to me like the same thing True Image, Ghost, or even BING are capable of. They do not include empty clusters in their images unless you tell them to. (Well, I don't know about Ghost, but that's the case for the other two.) They can span several CDs or DVDs, as well. You just have to have a CD (or DVD) burner attached. SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User www.grystmill.com > | Sounds really complicated, MEB, <s>. > [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > | > CDROM, delete those parts freeing space for the main program areas and > | > system. Then burning those to disk, before doing whatever needs done. | OK... Sounds to me like the same thing True Image, Ghost, or even BING are | capable of. They do not include empty clusters in their images unless you | tell them to. (Well, I don't know about Ghost, but that's the case for the | other two.) They can span several CDs or DVDs, as well. You just have to | have a CD (or DVD) burner attached. Right, same style with partition saving, just the sectors being used. Like I said, for free, , , , works pretty good. No need to use Bing and feel like you should actually pay for the program. [Of course you don't get the boot manager / MBR / partition tool like Bing though.] So as an easily downloaded program, here's another option for Teflon, and others in need. Makes me wonder how long this prog will be free. Apparently works with XP and VISTA as well. SignatureMEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com ________ | > | Sounds really complicated, MEB, <s>. | > [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] | > | > CDROM, delete those parts freeing space for the main program areas and | > | > system. Then burning those to disk, before doing whatever needs done. > 1. He probably doesn't want the added expense of another HDD. Then again, > sounds like he could use one. Drives are cheap, but I'd want one that's [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > D:partition will become E:partition, if you elect to keep the second HDD > > permanently installed. Those are both good suggestions, provided this was a desktop machine. However, it's a lqptop. A very limited laptop. Thought I said that early on. Sorry if I didn't, or it got buried. Yes, C: & D: are 2 GB partitions on the one 4 GB HDD. Being an older laptop, the HDD is buried under the keyboard, so removing it to make an image isn't the simple loosen one screw and slide it out, like my XP machine (also a lqptop), but that's the only solution I could come up with, UNLESS, I could somehow use one of those Internet-based storage sites as the recipient for the Ghost / True Image output. Anyone know if that would work? Interesting MS discussion. I wouldn't trust an internet backup solution. If you had the disk space, you could make an image and then store that on the internet, but any scheme that has the backup writing directly to the remote server is almost bound to fail, and would take a long, long time. It's the slowest and least reliable of all the solutions thus far, and I don't think either True Image or Ghost will do the job. Internet backup is a special program that I consider OK for backing up a few files, but not for an image. Your laptop has no LAN or USB port? Does it have a serial port? Does your desktop machine have a serial port? What about LPT ports? SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User www.grystmill.com >> 1. He probably doesn't want the added expense of another HDD. Then again, >> sounds like he could use one. Drives are cheap, but I'd want one that's [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Interesting MS discussion. > I wouldn't trust an internet backup solution. If you had the disk space, you > could make an image and then store that on the internet, but any scheme that [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Gary S. Terhune > MS-MVP Shell/Userwww.grystmill.com Yes Gary, the 98 FE laptop does not have a LAN connection, but does have a wireless card, a 1.0 USB port, a serial port and a parallel port. Don't think I can drive an external HDD via that 1.0 USB port, or run Ghost or True Image with the 98FE's laptop's limited resources. My XP machine is also a laptop with wireless, a 2.0 USB port and a parallel (printer) port. I used to be able to get them to talk to each other via an ad hoc wireless connection, but that stopped working. Also had a crossover cable that connected them via the parallel port, but haven't used that for awhile. Does that generate ideas about any other possabilities? I do like Lil Dave's idea about creating space for a 3rd partition on the 98 HDD and creating an image of C: there. I do have Partition Magic. Will check to see if anything I have will run on FE to create the image. Thanks again to you all for hanging in here. Nothing critical, more a learning experience than anything else, so all your help, advise and observations is much appreciated. You are most welcome. I feel that I learn more here than anywhere else in many ways. <smile> > > I wouldn't trust an internet backup solution. If you had the disk space, you > > could make an image and then store that on the internet, but any scheme that [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > learning experience than anything else, so all your help, advise and > observations is much appreciated. Well, you'd need a Windows-based imaging tool to use any network solution. That leaves out Ghost or TrueImage, unless you have an old copy. Image from BootIt NG, though, would work. You'd need the Image program, you couldn't use the imaging utility contained in BootIt NG. To image to the same hard drive, you'd need to have enough space to shrink your existing partition and still leave enough room to run Windows and perform the upgrade. while leaving enough unpartitioned space to store the image. How large is your hard drive and how much free space does it have (look in My Computer.) BootIt NG is the tool for this job. An external USB hard drive will run just fine on USB1, just very slowly. My question would be if the mobo has native USB support so that BootIt NG would see it, otherwise you'd have to use Image from Terabyte Unlimited (the makes of BootIt NG.) Have we already gone over the use of BootIt NG? SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User www.grystmill.com >> I wouldn't trust an internet backup solution. If you had the disk space, >> you [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > learning experience than anything else, so all your help, advise and > observations is much appreciated. In the good old DOS days stuff like Laplink and others connected things with serial or parallel ports. Since you have a suitable cable, why not try it. You can get it and others at: http://vetusware.com/ Good luck! > > I wouldn't trust an internet backup solution. If you had the disk space, you > > could make an image and then store that on the internet, but any scheme that [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > learning experience than anything else, so all your help, advise and > observations is much appreciated. Connecting the computers is not a problem. The issue is what program to use that will create an image of Computer A on Computer B's storage media. I know of no such program for DOS, and only one for Windows that will work in Win98 and is currently available: Image, from Terabyte Unlimited. I don't *think* there is an evaluation version, I *think* you have to pay for it, period. Whereas BootIt NG has an imaging program built-in, is free for the purpose, and can write to CD, to an external drive (if the mobo has native USB support), to an existing partition on the hard drive (as an ISO file), or to free space on the hard drive. If Teflon's intent is to create a one-time backup in preparation for an upgrade, without incurring costs, BootIt NG is the solution, and writing to the same partition and then copying the ISO file to Computer B using some sort of networking, which I guess in this case is the LPT link. Writing the BootIt NG to free space on the disk, after shrinking the existing partition is a distant second, since it can't be copied the Computer B. SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User www.grystmill.com > In the good old DOS days stuff like Laplink and others connected > things with serial or parallel ports. Since you have a suitable cable, [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] >> learning experience than anything else, so all your help, advise and >> observations is much appreciated. http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/imagew.html Is this the program you are referring to, Gary? Also, how does an image of someone's computer get transferred from one computer to another computer when they are both in different locations. Is it done through remote access of XP Professional. Feel Free to add the XP newsgroup because I am not sure the best newsgroup there to post this under and this group has always been the most friendly to me out of all the other newsgroups. > Connecting the computers is not a problem. The issue is what program to use > that will create an image of Computer A on Computer B's storage media. I [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > >> learning experience than anything else, so all your help, advise and > >> observations is much appreciated. An image is a regular file, Dan. Most often with the ISO extension. You can do with it the same things you can do with any file. Because an image of a hard drive partition is usually quite large, the only decent ways to transport it are over a network, whether it's a LAN, WAN or the internet, or using an external hard drive. That or you break it up using some utility and burn it to CDs or DVDs. No, the XP groups are not interested in this conversation. SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User www.grystmill.com > http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/imagew.html > [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] >> >> learning experience than anything else, so all your help, advise and >> >> observations is much appreciated. Ah, thank you and that makes so much sense. When I helped test Vista Ultimate, 32 bit for Microsoft; I burned the ISO image from the website to a DVD after I had downloaded the file. I have a CD burner and a DVD burner as well. I really do enjoy dual-booting with XP Professional and 98 Second Edition. I was talking to Microsoft support recently and the engineer who said he was from India said that he did the same thing as I did with a dual-boot of 98SE and XP Pro. So it could be possible to remotely transport someone's entire computer desktop via an ISO image to another computer and then setup the account on that other computer. Ah, now I see why Chris Quirke, MVP is so concerned about Windows XP Professional and the lack of maintance operating system like 98SE has with DOS. The way I see it now is that XP has too many services and this makes it vulnerable. In addition, XP Pro. has remote desktop while really nice for remote admin. it allows for a vulnerability such as what happened at the school that I work at to happen. 98SE is a closed system and has much more limited access by other people remotely. 98SE also has DOS which allows for people to use older programs and have great fun. Because, 98SE is tied with the 9x source code then this allows for people and even schools to use older programs like games and educational software that will not run on XP. This is the reason that I think 98SE is a great operating system and hopefully people will see this and jump back on the bandwagon by purchasing full copies of 98SE for dual-boot systems and to allow schools to use all of their older educational software that otherwise would have to be thrown away. > An image is a regular file, Dan. Most often with the ISO extension. You can > do with it the same things you can do with any file. Because an image of a [quoted text clipped - 98 lines] > >> >> learning experience than anything else, so all your help, advise and > >> >> observations is much appreciated. Hi Dan, I understand your fondness of 98SE, and I wouldn't consider giving up my copy. I'm currently using XP Pro because that is what was on the machine when I got it. As far as others "jumping back on the 98 bandwagon", it ain't gonna happen. For one thing, there aren't that many copies just floating around any longer. Secondly, fewer and fewer applications will run on 98, and very little hardware is marketed with 98 in mind. I kind of doubt MS will re-release W98, and that would be the only way it could be available to "the masses" again. Besides, the masses are no longer interested in 98. SignatureCurt Windows Support Center www.aumha.org Practically Nerded,... http://dundats.mvps.org/Index.htm | Ah, thank you and that makes so much sense. When I helped test Vista | Ultimate, 32 bit for Microsoft; I burned the ISO image from the website to a [quoted text clipped - 122 lines] | > >> >> learning experience than anything else, so all your help, advise and | > >> >> observations is much appreciated. Thanks for your input, Curt. It is the masses loss, then imo. > Hi Dan, > [quoted text clipped - 173 lines] > and > | > >> >> observations is much appreciated. Like I said Dan, if it weren't for the fact this machine already had XP, I'd be running 98. I was a diehard 98 person, and *hated* XP. Now that I've been running it for about 1 1/2 years, I've grown to like it. SignatureHTH, Curt Windows Support Center www.aumha.org Practically Nerded,... http://dundats.mvps.org/Index.htm | Thanks for your input, Curt. It is the masses loss, then imo. | [quoted text clipped - 175 lines] | > and | > | > >> >> observations is much appreciated. |> I wouldn't trust an internet backup solution. If you had the disk |> space, you could make an image and then store that on the internet, [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] | learning experience than anything else, so all your help, advise and | observations is much appreciated. You are welcome. Lil Dave's idea is a good one, if you've got the space. Have you examined that CD-ROM? Is it an IDE device? If so, maybe unplug it & put an HDD temporarily in its place. That's a second or third solution! If you have no floppy drive & you want to use BING, you'd have to make a Maintenance CD on maybe the XP machine, since you cannot write to the Win98 CD-ROM. Then, install it to the 98's HDD. I know I am not the OP but how do you go about making a maintenance cd and could you elaborate what you are getting at PCR? > |> I wouldn't trust an internet backup solution. If you had the disk > |> space, you could make an image and then store that on the internet, [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > Maintenance CD on maybe the XP machine, since you cannot write to the > Win98 CD-ROM. Then, install it to the 98's HDD. | I know I am not the OP but how do you go about making a maintenance | cd and could you elaborate what you are getting at PCR? The answer you seek about creating a Maintenance CD I'm sure is somewhere at... http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/kb/ The Terabyte Knowledge Base There's no sense in my re-writing it, especially as I personally only use a floppy drive for it. It's at least a 4 or 5 step procedure! After the maintenance CD is created, it must be used to install BING to the current HDD. That will be a number of additional steps, also to found at the TKB. (And I've never actually installed BING, but only run it from a Maintenance Floppy.) Then, unplug the CD-ROM & plug the 2nd HDD temporarily in its stead-- which I can't swear is possible. You do have to get the jumpers right. After that, make the copy or image & replace the CD-ROM. I probably would prefer a copy (not an Image). Also, I would switch this 2nd HDD with the first & boot it. Again, there will be jumpers to get right & a few additional considerations, which I can post upon request. But let the ORIGINAL be the copy at least until the work is done-- which is (IIRC) that Teflon wants to install Win98SE in place of FE! |> |> I wouldn't trust an internet backup solution. If you had the disk |> |> space, you could make an image and then store that on the [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] |> make a Maintenance CD on maybe the XP machine, since you cannot |> write to the Win98 CD-ROM. Then, install it to the 98's HDD. SignatureThanks or Good Luck, There may be humor in this post, and, Naturally, you will not sue, Should things get worse after this, PCR pcrrcp@netzero.net Thanks PCR! > | I know I am not the OP but how do you go about making a maintenance > | cd and could you elaborate what you are getting at PCR? [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > |> make a Maintenance CD on maybe the XP machine, since you cannot > |> write to the Win98 CD-ROM. Then, install it to the 98's HDD. | Thanks PCR! You are welcome. |> | I know I am not the OP but how do you go about making a maintenance |> | cd and could you elaborate what you are getting at PCR? [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] |> PCR |> pcrrcp@netzero.net SignatureThanks or Good Luck, There may be humor in this post, and, Naturally, you will not sue, Should things get worse after this, PCR pcrrcp@netzero.net |> 1. He probably doesn't want the added expense of another HDD. Then |> again, sounds like he could use one. Drives are cheap, but I'd want [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] | early on. Sorry if I didn't, or it got buried. Yes, C: & D: are 2 GB | partitions on the one 4 GB HDD. Yea, I see you said "laptop"-- (& usually I do stay out of such threads! But, now that I'm here)... What is the CD-ROM plugged into? Can you unplug it temporarily & plug in a 2nd HDD? Do you have a floppy drive? Even without a floppy drive, it's possible BING can get the job done-- IF a 2nd HDD will work in the CD-ROM slot. This is the best way to avoid secret, irradiated XP-folders-- unless Terhune comes up with something involving LAN, USB or LPT ports! (But I know nothing about birthing babies or laptop computers!) | Being an older laptop, the HDD is buried under the keyboard, so | removing it to make an image isn't the simple loosen one screw and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | | Interesting MS discussion. SignatureThanks or Good Luck, There may be humor in this post, and, Naturally, you will not sue, Should things get worse after this, PCR pcrrcp@netzero.net You can run BING from a CD. TI and NG might also have that capability. But you need some place to put the image. SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User www.grystmill.com > |> 1. He probably doesn't want the added expense of another HDD. Then > |> again, sounds like he could use one. Drives are cheap, but I'd want [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > | > | Interesting MS discussion. | You can run BING from a CD. TI and NG might also have that | capability. But you need some place to put the image. That is the rub, as you know Hamlet did say. I'm thinking, Teflon can run BING from a floppy or install it to the current HDD. Then -- if a 2nd HDD can function in place of the CD-ROM (I don't know)-- Teflon can make his copy to that. | -- | Gary S. Terhune [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] |> PCR |> pcrrcp@netzero.net SignatureThanks or Good Luck, There may be humor in this post, and, Naturally, you will not sue, Should things get worse after this, PCR pcrrcp@netzero.net > While I would like the USB and other upgraded support options of SE, I > have been putting off upgrading to SE on an older laptop, because, 1.) [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Pointing me to relevent info would also be appreciated. If I were in your shoes, I would be using 2 different 3rd party tools. Partition Magic 5.0 or greater on floppy, and DriveImage 6.0/2002 on floppy. Am assuming you have a floppy drive. PM to shrink the 98 partition for some free space to create another partition. DI to create an image of 98 partition to the new partition as an image file. Wish I could send both to you... your plans would be so much easier. Dave |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.