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Windows Forum / Windows 98 / General Topics / March 2008Need Advice
Well, it looks like I've finally reached the end-of-life with my P11, 300 MHz Win98se machine. My master hard drive went belly-up but I have managed to limp along by replacing it with my properly re- jumpered slave drive. Fortunately it was a clone of the master so it was able to boot-up okay. The dilemma: What to replace my computer it with. I have a good friend who is a well respected local Computer (since 1994) technician who strongly recommends Dell, ONLY because they are the only ones who still sell XP machines. His strong opinion is that Vista is very buggy and doesn't look like it is going to be cleaned up in the near future. Also he says the unique "features" of Vista are mostly troublesome eye candy and messy security items, and that XP will survive for at least the next 5+ years. My question: Should I limit my choices to Dell because of the XP/Vista consideration or should I bite the bullet and go for the best machine for my kilobuck without regard for the operating system. Any thoughts, recommendations will be appreciated. You can build your own machine and buy XP OEM copy on EBay. Or downgrade a Vista machine. But I tend to agree with your friend. Shop Dell. It's what I advise to family & friends.  SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User www.grystmill.com > Well, it looks like I've finally reached the end-of-life with my P11, 300 > MHz Win98se machine. My master hard drive went belly-up but I have [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Any thoughts, recommendations will be appreciated. > Well, it looks like I've finally reached the end-of-life with my P11, 300 > MHz Win98se machine. My master hard drive went belly-up but I have managed [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Any thoughts, recommendations will be appreciated. Wouldn't touch Vista with *anyone*'s ten-foot pole. SP1 has proven to be the predictable fiasco, too. If no other OS is suitable, then do whatever you can to get XP. In my 4+ months of using it, it has been remarkably stable (one would hope so after 2 SPs - I won't try SP3 until it's been out there for a few months). SignatureRegards Nigel Stapley www.thejudge.me.uk <reply-to will bounce> I'd suggest Dell and Windows XP (and NOT Vista). Don't take too long, though, because as of June 30, you won't even be able to get WinXP installed on any OEMs, anymore. In fact, you may not even be able to buy the WinXP software locally then anymore. I got a Dell Inspiron with WinXP, and it's been great. Plus Dell's Community User Forums are VERY extensive and helpful for support issues. But I still have my other older Dell here, with Win98SE (which I also use). You might want to consider fixing that old one up, too, as a second computer. I still prefer some things in Win98SE over WinXP, chief amongst them being that *I* can pretty much configure the system to be the way that *I* want it to be, and not Bill Gates. :-) Plus it is lean. :-) > Well, it looks like I've finally reached the end-of-life with my P11, 300 > MHz Win98se machine. My master hard drive went belly-up but I have [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Any thoughts, recommendations will be appreciated. Thanks all for the good advice! I think I will go for a Dell Inspiron 530 with XP. I can get a well optioned one for $600-700. I was planning on using my Samsung 19" flat panel but that would leave me without a display for my old 98se dog which I DO plan on keeping active, so guess I'll go for a new display with the 530. One last question, is the pro version of XP worth the extra bucks? I'm not a heavy power user I'd suggest Dell and Windows XP (and NOT Vista). Don't take too long, though, because as of June 30, you won't even be able to get WinXP installed on any OEMs, anymore. In fact, you may not even be able to buy the WinXP software locally then anymore. I got a Dell Inspiron with WinXP, and it's been great. Plus Dell's Community User Forums are VERY extensive and helpful for support issues. But I still have my other older Dell here, with Win98SE (which I also use). You might want to consider fixing that old one up, too, as a second computer. I still prefer some things in Win98SE over WinXP, chief amongst them being that *I* can pretty much configure the system to be the way that *I* want it to be, and not Bill Gates. :-) Plus it is lean. :-) bobster wrote: > Well, it looks like I've finally reached the end-of-life with my P11, 300 > MHz Win98se machine. My master hard drive went belly-up but I have [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Any thoughts, recommendations will be appreciated. I always recommend Pro, for it's additional networking abilities, Remote Access, etc. Even if you don't need them now, you may in the future, and that's a lot of upgrading. SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User www.grystmill.com > Thanks all for the good advice! I think I will go for a Dell Inspiron 530 > with XP. I can get a well optioned one for $600-700. I was planning on [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] >> >> Any thoughts, recommendations will be appreciated. That depends on your needs. I'm not into networking, and all that, so for me, Win XP Home Edition was all I wanted. Although "customizing" even that, will take you some time ("taming the beast", I should say - getting rid of some of the BS, (like that dumb default, mixed bag Programs and Documents Start Menu - just for starters). > Thanks all for the good advice! I think I will go for a Dell Inspiron 530 > with XP. I can get a well optioned one for $600-700. I was planning on [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] >> >> Any thoughts, recommendations will be appreciated. > One last question, is the pro version of XP worth the extra bucks? For home use, No. There are two possible exceptions: a) support for multiple CPU's I *believe* that home will not fully support a core-2 Duo machine because XP-home is limited to a single CPU. b) support for multiple monitors / display adapters I *believe* that XP-home has more limited support for multiple monitors vs XP-pro - possibly only supporting a single adapter and monitor. All the other sh.t that XP-pro has vs XP-home you will NEVER use on a home PC. But the above 2 items could make all the difference and are what you should focus on when making your decision. > Thanks all for the good advice! I think I will go for a Dell Inspiron 530 > with XP. I can get a well optioned one for $600-700. . . . Concerning Dell -- be advised: 1. You need to draft approximate specifications, e.g. 512 Mb RAM or more (not 256 Mb as in the cheaper Dells) e.g. hard drive size and speed, whether you want a separate second hard drive, and how they should be partitioned (I prefer two or more partitions each: Dell does not.) 2. Dell PCs are supplied with special Dell XP system disks (not standard MS OEM system disks) and I think these disallow restoration of individual MS modules or components. There are "Rescue" CDs with diagnostics and repair tools, but the "Restore" CD is preprogrammed to repartition (wipe) the hard drive and reinstal everything from scratch. You would thus lose any data not written to a previously created drive D: (cf. planning partitions in #1. Of course XP's System Restore procedures were intended to make reinstallation unnecessary: but they were never quite perfected, cf. number of updates.) 3. Certain Dell and Microsoft functions are integrated, e.g. Help files. This means standard MS manuals do not necessarily apply to your PC. This is a pain. For these reasons I would never buy Dell. But (nearly) everybody needs a manual. I recommend the MS manual by Bott and Siechert called MS WindowsXP Inside Out. > One last question, is the pro version of XP worth the extra bucks? 4. Yes, buy XP while you can (since XP will be withdrawn from the market in favour of Vista) and make it the Pro version. You would kick yourself if you later wanted something (fax, networking Remote Desktop etc.) configured best (or exclusively) only in Pro. 5. If confident in the vendor, you can buy a used XP Pro PC for less than half the price of new Dell systems. http://www.bmtnet.com/instore/ shows what is on offer where I live, in one of the few surviving old-style computer stores (where I buy components, have parts tested etc.) On first boot you probably need to instal scores of XP updates, but the MS web site automates this. Peace of mind is worth hard cash, which is why some home users buy Dell, although these units are packaged mainly for bulk business users. If you are screwdriver-capable as far as adding a 2nd hard drive to a PC, your dollars buy much more in the used market (business PCs traded in by people hornswoggled into going all-Vista, also peripherals e.g. printers.) SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > > One last question, is the pro version of XP worth the extra bucks? > > 4. Yes, buy XP while you can and make it the Pro version. You > would kick yourself if you later wanted something (fax, networking > Remote Desktop etc.) configured best (or exclusively) only in Pro. Again, I think that's very poor advice. And BTW, XP-home does have fax support: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/306550 I previously posted 2 reasons why a home user should consider XP-Pro, and I'll add a third here: 1) Multiprocessor support (ie core2-Duo and quad-core CPU's). If your system has a dual or quad-core cpu (or you think you will get one in the future) then you want XP-pro. End of story. 2) Multiple display adapter support. I believe that upon further investigation this is a non-issue. There were reports that the first beta versions of XP-home did not support multiple monitors, but that distinction is no longer made between XP-home and Pro. 3) Upgrade-ability from other versions of Windows XP-Pro will allow upgrading from all previous versions of Windows (9x, Me, 2K) but XP-home will allow upgrading only from 9x/Me. So basically you probably won't be able to upgrade an installation of 2K to XP-home. So the reasons for buying XP-pro vs Home come down to 2 reasons: 1) multi-processor support (dual and quad-core CPU's) 2) future upgrade potential from win-2K If you're a power user, then yes there are some things that can only be done in XP-pro (remote desktop and administration being the most important), but for someone who is only now (in the year 2008) considering using Windows XP, it's highly unlikely that such a person would be in need of any of XP-pro's more esoteric capabilities. Advice along the lines of -> "well you soon won't be able to get XP so you might as well get the more advanced XP-pro version while you can" is more of an arm-chair, gut-level advice with no merrit. > 1) Multiprocessor support (ie core2-Duo and quad-core CPU's). > If your system has a dual or quad-core cpu (or you think you > will get one in the future) then you want XP-pro. End of > story. This is wrong. "Multi processor support" does not refer to multiple cores. It refers to physical processors. True, XP Home does support only a single CPU, however it may certainly have multiple cores, such as the examples cited above. If one wishes to use two distinct processors, however, than XP Pro is the way to go. > > 1) Multiprocessor support (ie core2-Duo and quad-core CPU's). > > If your system has a dual or quad-core cpu (or you think > > you will get one in the future) then you want XP-pro. > > End of story. > This is wrong. "Multi processor support" does not refer to > multiple cores. Microsoft is opaque as far as describing explicit processor support for XP-home. There are many web-examples (or web-forum examples) of discussions where there are various (and competing) claims. However, here is some authoritative information from MS: http://www.microsoft.com/licensing/highlights/multicore.mspx -------------- Q. How does this licensing policy affect products such as Microsoft Windows XP Professional? A. Microsoft Windows XP Professional and Microsoft Windows XP Home are not affected by this policy as they are licensed per installation and not per processor. Windows XP Professional can support up to two processors regardless of the number of cores on the processor. Microsoft Windows XP Home supports one processor. -------------- Note Micro$oft's answer for XP-pro: "Windows XP Professional can support up to two processors regardless of the number of cores on the processor" Now note the answer for XP-home: "Microsoft Windows XP Home supports one processor." MS did not add "regardless of the number of cores on the processor" to the answer for XP-home. In other words, MS did not specifically state that XP-home has full support for multi-core CPU's (even if it only supports a single CPU). In any case, based on searching for and reading various webforum discussions, it appears that the consensus is that XP-home will support all the cores that exist on a single physical CPU on a given system. Since practically 100% of all consumer (and even pro-sumer, hobbyist, etc) systems made for the past few years will have motherboards with only 1 physical CPU socket, it's basically a given that XP-home vs XP-pro would not be a factor when it comes to CPU support today. Now if we are talking about hyperthreading, that's another issue where definitive information is hard to get. So what would have been the single most important reason today to select XP-Pro over XP-home is effectively off the table. That leaves basically no reason why anyone who is only now (in the year 2008) considering XP would ever have a need for XP-Pro vs XP-home. It's clear that MicroShaft would rather see people buy XP-pro vs XP-home, and has been purposefully vague about some aspects of how they differ in order to promote the idea that the average (or even above-average) home user would see a tangible benefit from Pro vs Home. As for cost differences, I see the following on Tigerdirect.com: http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/category/category_slc.asp?Recs=30&Nav=|c :306|&Sort=4 Microsoft Windows XP Home SP2 OEM Version ($90) Microsoft Windows XP Pro SP2 OEM Version ($140) I would make the case that the extra $50 could be put to better use buying a better keyboard, mouse, memory, CPU, or DVD burner for a prospective new system. And naturally, one can always purchase this item: Microsoft Windows XP Professional Service Pack 2 ($295) But it's beyond me why someone would choose that (or why a retailer would offer it) vs the OEM version. Everything you say about Dell applies to most ALL of the rest of the OEM manufacturers, too. In fact, Dell is better than most. You also don't seem to realize that Dell has both a Business and a Home division. All in all, from what you wrote and the way you wrote it, you don't know much about Dells, or about any other major manufacturer, either. Which raises the question as to why you responded at all. SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User www.grystmill.com >> Thanks all for the good advice! I think I will go for a Dell Inspiron >> 530 [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > in the used market (business PCs traded in by people > hornswoggled into going all-Vista, also peripherals e.g. printers.) > Concerning Dell -- be advised: > 1. You need to draft approximate specifications, e.g. > 512 Mb RAM or more (not 256 Mb as in the cheaper Dells) <snip> Unless someone is in the market for a used computer, I'm pretty sure that even the cheapest Dells on sale today have at least 512 MB of RAM! > 2. Dell PCs are supplied with special Dell XP system disks > (not standard MS OEM system disks) and I think these disallow [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > intended to make reinstallation unnecessary: but they were never > quite perfected, cf. number of updates.) A colleague of mine recently purchased a Dell Vostro, which came with a full-fledged (albeit branded) installation disk, which is capable of being used to perform a repair install, so wiping the hard drive need not be a concern. I think the min RAM is probably 1 GB at this point (in preparation for Vista). >> Concerning Dell -- be advised: >> 1. You need to draft approximate specifications, e.g. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > being used to perform a repair install, so wiping the hard drive need > not be a concern. Last I looked it was 512MB in most cases. SignatureGary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User www.grystmill.com >I think the min RAM is probably 1 GB at this point (in preparation for >Vista). [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> being used to perform a repair install, so wiping the hard drive need >> not be a concern. > My question: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > should I bite the bullet and go for the best machine for my > kilobuck without regard for the operating system. If you (or everyone you know or can rely on) are completely incapable of building a computer from scratch (in other words, if your only realistic choice is to buy a fully assembled retail machine) then Dell is probably the way to go. But beware the low prices because those machines are really stripped-down and Dell charges a lot for simple upgrades (like more memory, better CPU, better optical drive, etc). And yes, Dell is still offering some machines with XP. But you should be aware that you can still buy XP (retail version) until the end (or start?) of June 2008, and you will still be able to get the "System Builder" version of XP until January 2009. Which means if you have the ability to put together a system from parts that it should be no problem to buy a legit copy of XP for the remainder of this year. > should I bite the bullet and go for the best machine for my > kilobuck without regard for the operating system. You can always buy (the best) machine and simply wipe the hard drive and install XP on it if you want. I would never wish Vista on anyone. Vista is a downgrade compared to XP. On the other hand, if you are having a hard time saying goodby to win-98, you really don't have to. It is (still) possible to put together a new system with specific motherboard and video card combinations that will run win-98 just fine. Interesting comment. I've thought about the possibility of a dual boot 98se/XP. Don't know if it makes sense, but like you, I am so comfortable with 98 that I hate to give up on it completely. I'm a retired electrical engineer but don't know if I'm up to building a machine from scratch. Might be fun to try. bobster wrote: > My question: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > should I bite the bullet and go for the best machine for my > kilobuck without regard for the operating system. If you (or everyone you know or can rely on) are completely incapable of building a computer from scratch (in other words, if your only realistic choice is to buy a fully assembled retail machine) then Dell is probably the way to go. But beware the low prices because those machines are really stripped-down and Dell charges a lot for simple upgrades (like more memory, better CPU, better optical drive, etc). And yes, Dell is still offering some machines with XP. But you should be aware that you can still buy XP (retail version) until the end (or start?) of June 2008, and you will still be able to get the "System Builder" version of XP until January 2009. Which means if you have the ability to put together a system from parts that it should be no problem to buy a legit copy of XP for the remainder of this year. > should I bite the bullet and go for the best machine for my > kilobuck without regard for the operating system. You can always buy (the best) machine and simply wipe the hard drive and install XP on it if you want. I would never wish Vista on anyone. Vista is a downgrade compared to XP. On the other hand, if you are having a hard time saying goodby to win-98, you really don't have to. It is (still) possible to put together a new system with specific motherboard and video card combinations that will run win-98 just fine. > Interesting comment. I've thought about the possibility of a dual > boot 98se/XP. Don't know if it makes sense, but like you, I am so > comfortable with 98 that I hate to give up on it completely. Less than a month ago, I installed WinXP Home OEM on my self-built Win 98 machine. I did the dual boot trip not because I am married to Win98 but because I really didn't want the hassle of reinstalling all the programs I have in Win98. I installed a handful of programs to the XP partition (formatted NTFS) but since it reads the 98 partition I can use the programs I have there too. When first running those, some need to be re-registered and options set up again since the original info is in the 98 registry; others run without anything needed. The XP user interface is considerably different from that of my highly customized one in Win98 but by changing XP to the "Classic" look and a bit of work they now look and function virtually identically. I rarely boot into Win98. _____________________ > I'm a > retired electrical engineer but don't know if I'm up to building a > machine from scratch. Might be fun to try. Sure you can, assuming you can plug an electric light cord into an outlet :) And it *is* fun. 1. Decide on the CPU you want to use 2. Find a motherboard compatible with the CPU 3. If you want/need any other add on cards, decide on them. 4. Plug CPU and RAM into MB 5. Mount MB in case 6. Hook on a drive. 7. Install OS 8. Shutdown, disconnect power, plug in any add in card to MB (one at a time), reboot. 9. Install drivers as needed. 10. Goto #8 until finished. If you have the space for it, get a BIG case - it is much easier to work in one - with plenty of cooling. I like Antec but there are numerous. SignaturedadiOH ____________________________ dadiOH's dandies v3.06... ...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that. Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico >> Interesting comment. I've thought about the possibility of a dual >> boot 98se/XP. Don't know if it makes sense, but like you, I am so [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > because I really didn't want the hassle of reinstalling all the programs I > have in Win98. You don't have to. You can use Laplink PC Mover. That's what I did. It copied all my programs AND settings from my Win98SE computer over to the new WinXP computer. There are a few hitches, in that you may still have to reinstall (or uninstall and reinstall) a few of them afterwards, but it sure saved a LOT of time and trouble. And I mean a LOT. :-) > I installed a handful of programs to the XP partition (formatted NTFS) but > since it reads the 98 partition I can use the programs I have there too. [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that. > Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico Well, the bullet has been bitten! I ordered an XP Dell 530 Inspiron. With their current $100 discount and a few extras like a 2Gig memory and a card reader, I'm out $529 less shipping and tax. I plan on outfitting it with freeware such as Avast!, ZA, SpyBot S&D, AdAware, etc. Definitely no Norton or McAffee stuff! Thanks again for the many suggestions and helpful hints. I've been monitoring this board for a number of years and have been bailed out of trouble numerous times. I will miss all of you but guess I must now transition to the XP group. Cheers, Bobster ========================================================== dadiOH wrote: > bobster wrote: >> Interesting comment. I've thought about the possibility of a dual [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > because I really didn't want the hassle of reinstalling all the programs I > have in Win98. You don't have to. You can use Laplink PC Mover. That's what I did. It copied all my programs AND settings from my Win98SE computer over to the new WinXP computer. There are a few hitches, in that you may still have to reinstall (or uninstall and reinstall) a few of them afterwards, but it sure saved a LOT of time and trouble. And I mean a LOT. :-) > I installed a handful of programs to the XP partition (formatted NTFS) but > since it reads the 98 partition I can use the programs I have there too. [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that. > Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico > Well, the bullet has been bitten! > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > trouble numerous times. I will miss all of you but guess I must now > transition to the XP group. Might not need to - I'm still here 4+ months after I switched and haven't needed to go to "The Other Side" yet! Mind you, I still have my 98SE rig running. SignatureRegards Nigel Stapley www.thejudge.me.uk <reply-to will bounce> >> Well, the bullet has been bitten! >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Nigel Stapley Yeah, we can stay in both groups. This Win98 group tends to be a little nicer in some ways (i.e.: techie-oriented, with generally less BS in the way. :-) "Mind you, I still have my 98SE rig running." I probably should have done that. I "saved" $190 on my new machine by ordering it without a display as I had a very nice 19" Samsung flat panel for my 98se that was relatively new. But now, the 98se machine is display-less. Maybe I should visit my local used computer stuff store and get a $25 CRT. ;-) bobster wrote: > Well, the bullet has been bitten! > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > trouble numerous times. I will miss all of you but guess I must now > transition to the XP group. Might not need to - I'm still here 4+ months after I switched and haven't needed to go to "The Other Side" yet! SignatureRegards Nigel Stapley www.thejudge.me.uk <reply-to will bounce> > "Mind you, I still have my 98SE rig running." > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > machine is display-less. Maybe I should visit my local used > computer stuff store and get a $25 CRT. ;-) Is there some reason you can't unplug the monitor from your soon-to-be new machine and plug it into the old one when and if you want to use the old one? SignaturedadiOH ____________________________ dadiOH's dandies v3.06... ...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that. Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico Yes, you're right. I could easily do that. Just a simple power cord and VGA cable. bobster wrote: > "Mind you, I still have my 98SE rig running." > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > machine is display-less. Maybe I should visit my local used > computer stuff store and get a $25 CRT. ;-) Is there some reason you can't unplug the monitor from your soon-to-be new machine and plug it into the old one when and if you want to use the old one? SignaturedadiOH ____________________________ dadiOH's dandies v3.06... ...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that. Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico |
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