Windows Forum / Windows Me / Setup / April 2007
low level format
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atlantis43 - 04 Apr 2007 17:25 GMT I gateway PC which is quite functional but afflicted with many small problems. I'm wondering if anyone can tell me if I can do a low level format of my HD, and then re-install my OS from the "installation discs" that came with the PC.
Richard
Mike M - 04 Apr 2007 17:58 GMT Personally I'd simply format and install, a "low level" format is very rarely required and is manufacturer specific however if this is really what you feel you should do then you need to visit the website of the manufacturer of your hard disk to see if they have the necessary utility available. Low level formats aren't a method of fixing small problems with an operating system but rather used to try and deal with deep seated problems with a hard disk.
I suspect that what you want to do is to format your hard disk which is done by booting to DOS with a Win Me boot floppy and running the Format command.
For more information see the Microsoft Knowledge Base article 255867 - "How to Use the Fdisk Tool and the Format Tool to Partition or Repartition a Hard Disk" (http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=255867) as well as the file CLEANHD.TXT which is in the Win 9x folder on the Win Me CD and also as KB271673 - "Windows Millennium Edition Cleanhd.txt File Contents" (http://support.microsoft.com?kbid=271673).. This should help you get started.
 Signature Mike Maltby mike.maltby@gmail.com
> I gateway PC which is quite functional but afflicted with many small > problems. I'm wondering if anyone can tell me if I can do a low level > format of my HD, and then re-install my OS from the "installation > discs" that came with the PC. cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user) - 08 Apr 2007 10:54 GMT On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 16:25:22 GMT, "atlantis43 via WindowsKB.com"
>I gateway PC which is quite functional but afflicted with many small problems. >I'm wondering if anyone can tell me if I can do a low level format of my HD, >and then re-install my OS from the "installation discs" that came with the PC. See http://cquirke.mvps.org/reinst.htm
Rather figure out those "many small problems", in case you end up with one large problem instead ;-)
Seriously; many types of problems can corrupt the process of "just" rebuilding the system software, so you'd wish you could Undo.
>-------------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - - Hmmm... what was the *other* idea?
>-------------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - - atlantis43 - 15 Apr 2007 22:12 GMT CQuirke; Your links are very interesting, but the specific troublesome problem seems to elude 'figuring out'. Generally, the year-old PC with lots of ram & free memory & cache seems to work extremely slowly, predominantly in MSAccess2003. I've already had my shop evaluate (and simply reinstall WinXP and MSOffice), and it improved only slightly. (I don't reeally use many other apps where I can evaluate processing speed, so I can't tell if the whole system is slow.) The shop failed to write zeros to my WD hard drive before they re-installed, even though WD recommends that this should be done before any OS re-install, so I think that this is a good place to start (in spite of your link). It might be some incompatible software that I previously installed that is slowing things down (I did load some old apps that are not XP compatible), or it might be some malware (though norton & zonelabs don't find anything), or maybe my system just needs replaceing. Thanks again Richard
>On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 16:25:22 GMT, "atlantis43 via WindowsKB.com" > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Hmmm... what was the *other* idea? >>-------------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - - Mike M - 16 Apr 2007 00:45 GMT Out of curiosity can you give a reference please to where WD say to write zeroes before installing an OS. I would be interested to read this since I have never done this in many years of working with PCs and would be interested to learn their reasoning for this suggestion.
Not that it is relevant to the question of "writing zeroes" but I hope you appreciate that you are posting to a newsgroup supporting those wishing to setup the old Win Me operating system rather than XP, hence the "windowsme" in the title of the newsgroup.
 Signature Mike Maltby mike.maltby@gmail.com
> CQuirke; > Your links are very interesting, but the specific troublesome problem [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > don't find anything), or maybe my system just needs replaceing. > Thanks again atlantis43 - 16 Apr 2007 01:31 GMT Source for above statement (for RE-INSTALLING an OS) can be seen on WD KB msg #1211, virtually verbatim! Also, a top level IT acquaintance tells me (as I, with my limited PC knowledge understand it) that there can frequently be 'duplicate' files that are corrupted (perhaps due to malware, improper uninstall procedures, etc.) that can be causing system malfunctions, and the only way to solve the problem is to truly 'eliminate' all such files. Richard.
>Out of curiosity can you give a reference please to where WD say to write >zeroes before installing an OS. I would be interested to read this since [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> don't find anything), or maybe my system just needs replaceing. >> Thanks again Mike M - 16 Apr 2007 02:16 GMT > Source for above statement (for RE-INSTALLING an OS) can be seen on > WD KB msg #1211, virtually verbatim! "Western Digital provides software utilities that can erase all the data on a hard drive. Writing zeros to a drive is recommended any time an operating system is to be reinstalled on a boot drive or whenever a blank drive is desired. "
Recommended maybe but by no means required. I have never had to write zeroes to a hard drive before either first use or installing an operating system and I've been working with PCs now for the best part of twenty five years. Since I have never experienced problems that might require a low level format I don't intend doing so now. <g>
Seagate in contrast say "Perform this "low-level-format" only if all other POWERMAX tests have passed (or by direction of Seagate Technical Support) and the hard drive is still not performing correctly."
> Also, a top level IT acquaintance tells me (as I, with my limited PC > knowledge understand it) that there can frequently be 'duplicate' > files that are corrupted (perhaps due to malware, improper uninstall > procedures, etc.) that can be causing system malfunctions, and the > only way to solve the problem is to truly 'eliminate' all such files. I'm sorry but for the greater part your friend is incorrect. Formatting a hard disk is all that is required to remove a previous operating system. It is very rarely necessary to write zeroes, this is normally only required, and multiple times, when disposing of hard drives that previously contained sensitive material so as to prevent its recovery using specialist tools.
The only other time that I would contemplate performing a low level format is if I was experiencing major read or write problems on a hard drive and I had run the manufacturer's test utility such as Maxtor's PowerMax or Seagate's SeaTools and the utility had made this recommendation.
 Signature Mike Maltby MS-MVP Windows mike.maltby@gmail.com
atlantis43 - 16 Apr 2007 20:11 GMT Mike; Your comments sound convincing, but I remain confused. My particular problem arose on my PC (the one running XP) with very slow functioning of Access2003 Db, which started running queries slowly, opening forms slowly, and opening my modules OH SO SLOWLY! My OS and MSOFFICE were re-installed, but this barely improved the problem. However, if I take the same Db and install it on a PC with much lower capabilities, it functions just fine! Clearly, something is corrupting my system, and persisting after re- installation. Perhaps this is 'one of those things'. Perhaps the re-install is not equivalent to a reformat, and I should first try the Maxtor utility (for my XP system) for a low level format, and not worry about a full disc cleaning. Richard
>> Source for above statement (for RE-INSTALLING an OS) can be seen on >> WD KB msg #1211, virtually verbatim! [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >I had run the manufacturer's test utility such as Maxtor's PowerMax or >Seagate's SeaTools and the utility had made this recommendation. Mart - 17 Apr 2007 01:04 GMT You haven't yet really made a case for suspecting the HDD. You have only mentioned that it is a particular Access 2003 .mdb file which is slow - and other (unspecified) small problems. Is the PC running slow with ALL programs? Is it slow to boot? How about scandisk (or 'Error checking' if you are running XP)? Does that tell you anything?
What happens if you just open Access alone (no data) - is that slow too?
Why not try Task Manager (Ctrl+Alt+Del) and see if you can identify any 'extra' overheads when opening or rather executing queries in Access.
> However, if I ... install it (the database?) on a PC with much lower > capabilities, it functions just fine! 'Install'? - I assume you mean 'open' the same .mdb file on another PC running Access 2003
Have you tried running the Northwind Sample Database? - Is that slow too?
> Perhaps the re-install is not equivalent to a reformat, and I should first > try the Maxtor utility (for my XP system) for a low level format, and not > worry about a full disc cleaning. I think you'll find that a Low Level Format is effectively 'a full disk clean'. It's not exactly 'selective' - it'll wipe the lot, requiring a full install etc.
Mart
> Mike; > Your comments sound convincing, but I remain confused. My particular [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] >>I had run the manufacturer's test utility such as Maxtor's PowerMax or >>Seagate's SeaTools and the utility had made this recommendation. Mike M - 17 Apr 2007 09:59 GMT Thanks Mart for stepping in. I was rather busy elsewhere for most of yesterday afternoon and evening so didn't have a chance to check for any follow-up from Richard.
Richard,
As Mart has said a slow application doesn't necessarily mean that the disk is bad. Sadly Win Me doesn't have an Event Log such as is in XP where you could check if the system was having problems accessing the hard disk. I can't recall whether you have run chkdsk or not or whether this reports that you have any bad blocks or not. Even so with modern hard disks with SMART, mapping out of bad disk blocks tends to be done on the fly by the disk itself and the operating system and chkdsk will normally only come in to play when all of the spare hardware blocks have been consumed.
Since we are talking Win Me you are using FAT32 as the filing system on the hard drive. FAT32 is far more susceptible to slow down if fragmented than say NTFS filing system which is used by most systems running XP. Have you therefore recently defragged the drive?
 Signature Mike Maltby MS-MVP Windows mike.maltby@gmail.com
> You haven't yet really made a case for suspecting the HDD. You have > only mentioned that it is a particular Access 2003 .mdb file which is [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > disk clean'. It's not exactly 'selective' - it'll wipe the lot, > requiring a full install etc. atlantis43 - 17 Apr 2007 19:02 GMT Mike: Sadly Win Me doesn't have an Event Log such as is in XP where you
>could check if the system was having problems accessing the hard disk. I'll check this on my system that is running XP (if I can find what you mean Yes, system has been defragged, but to no avail
Thanks, Richard
>Thanks Mart for stepping in. I was rather busy elsewhere for most of >yesterday afternoon and evening so didn't have a chance to check for any [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> disk clean'. It's not exactly 'selective' - it'll wipe the lot, >> requiring a full install etc. atlantis43 - 17 Apr 2007 18:54 GMT Mart: Is the PC running slow with ALL programs?
Hard to tell, as the only one I can compare to previous is my MSAccess Db. Mozilla, SpeechRecognition, etc all seem to be a bit slower than before, but not as impressively slower than Access. Also seems somewhat slow to boot, but again, not impressively so.
How about scandisk (or 'Error checking' if you are running XP)
I've only run defrag, but with no improvement. I'll try 'error checking'.
What happens if you just open Access alone (no data)
Don't know quite what you mean. The Db window opens OK, but anything I truy to do within an access Db runs slowly.
Why not try Task Manager (Ctrl+Alt+Del)
Too damned many things to try omitting, and I'm not familiar enough with most of them to know which are important. Also, I should have noted that the modules of Access take forever to load INITIALLY. If I close the module window and then re-open ir, it re-opens much faster. Thus, I'd have to close Access each time I change settings on task mgr.
Install'? - I assume you mean 'open' the same .mdb file on another PC running Access 2003
Yes
Have you tried running the Northwind Sample Database? - Is that slow too?
Yes. Not noticeably, but the module section is very small, and there is little data in the Db to evaluate query run-time, etc.
You haven't yet really made a case for suspecting the HDD. You have only mentioned that it is a particular Access 2003 .mdb file which is slow - and other (unspecified) small problems. Is the PC running slow with ALL programs? Is it slow to boot? How about scandisk (or 'Error checking' if you are running XP)? Does that tell you anything?
What happens if you just open Access alone (no data) - is that slow too?
Why not try Task Manager (Ctrl+Alt+Del) and see if you can identify any 'extra' overheads when opening or rather executing queries in Access.
> However, if I ... install it (the database?) on a PC with much lower > capabilities, it functions just fine! 'Install'? - I assume you mean 'open' the same .mdb file on another PC running Access 2003
Have you tried running the Northwind Sample Database? - Is that slow too?
> Perhaps the re-install is not equivalent to a reformat, and I should first > try the Maxtor utility (for my XP system) for a low level format, and not > worry about a full disc cleaning. I think you'll find that a Low Level Format is effectively 'a full disk clean'. It's not exactly 'selective' - it'll wipe the lot, requiring a full install etc.
>> Your comments sound convincing, but I remain confused. My particular >[quoted text clipped - 49 lines] >>>I had run the manufacturer's test utility such as Maxtor's PowerMax or >>>Seagate's SeaTools and the utility had made this recommendation. atlantis43 - 16 Apr 2007 01:35 GMT Oh, I forgot that I'm currently planning on trying such a procedure on a system running ME, and on another system running XP. My string actually started with a question about my ME system. Richard
>Out of curiosity can you give a reference please to where WD say to write >zeroes before installing an OS. I would be interested to read this since [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> don't find anything), or maybe my system just needs replaceing. >> Thanks again cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user) - 24 Apr 2007 21:49 GMT On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 21:12:37 GMT, "atlantis43 via WindowsKB.com"
>CQuirke; Hi!
>Your links are very interesting, but the specific troublesome problem seems >to elude 'figuring out'. OK...
>Generally, the year-old PC with lots of ram & free memory & cache seems to >work extremely slowly, predominantly in MSAccess2003. Ahh... is there an av that is scanning "document files" while they are in use? It's appropriate to do so, given that MS broke the data/code distinction by allowing macros and scripts to be embedded in these "data" files, and having these run automatically... but you can imagine the performance impact of having a large Access database being scanned every time it is updated or even <cough> accessed.
>The shop failed to write zeros to my WD hard drive before they re-installed, >even though WD recommends that this should be done before any OS re-install, >so I think that this is a good place to start (in spite of your link). I don't think that's likely to be relevant, as long as the HD was file-system-formatted at the time.
What will trully clobber NTFS performance is if the NTFS volume is mis-aligned so that it is created with 512-byte clusters. That can happen if originally partitioned for FATxx and then converted to NTFS.
I'm using BING (www.bootitng.com) for partitioning, and that has a setting to "align for NTFS" that I use even for FATxx volumes. Old versions used to ask "do you intend converting to NTFS?".
>------------------------- ---- --- -- - - - - I'm on a ten-year lunch break
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