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Windows Forum / Windows Me / General Topics / January 2005Occasional Boot Failure
During the boot sequence WinMe sometimes hangs after the Taskbar and Desktop icons appear but before applications are loaded. The keyboard doesn't work, the mouse arrow is an hourglass that will move but won't click, and the movement produces a rasping sound in the speakers. Reset is always successful, Scandisk and Dr Watson find nothing. Bootlog Analyser tells me it happens somewhere around Enumerating Microsoft Kernel Audio Mixer (the exact place varies) and even if the boot is successful this group of operations may recycle or take much longer than usual. I have a VIA AC97 Audio Controller and Total Recorder installed. Can anyone suggest remedies I might try please? Alan Armstrong Has this only started happening since you installed Total Recorder? If so, delete it (in Add/Remove programs) and try it without to see if there is an improvement. You could then re-install it again to see if its fixed.. If not, then assuming that you still have a copy of the original software and drivers disk, probably the next and easiest? thing to try would be to uninstall all audio software utilities and "Remove" any/all Sound, Video and Games Controllers in Device Manager in Safe Mode. Re-boot into Normal Mode and let WinMe re-detect (enumerate) and re-install (according to the Audio Package instructions) the drivers and software. Hopefully, if that was the cause, it should clear out any glitches and bring your boot sequence back up to speed. If not, then at least you will have eliminated the audio system too<g> Mart > During the boot sequence WinMe sometimes hangs after the Taskbar and > Desktop [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Alan Armstrong Thank you, Mart. About 40 re-boots later things are a bit better and I am a bit wiser. >Has this only started happening since you installed Total Recorder? The problem (and original TR) are over a year old so I can't remember, but it pre-dates and was unaffected by: - the last two TR upgrades. - a recent install of VIA Tech's Vinyl Audio Codecs. - a clean reinstall of WinMe in a new folder after a major crash caused by memory failure. Uninstalling TR and Waveflow editor (my only two audio programs apart from WMP) made no difference to enumeration delays on reboot. I had no idea Device Manager hides so many listings (including the ones I suspected) in Normal Mode and I am amazed how much undocumented stuff you MVP's somehow know! I removed all 21 items from Sound, Video and Game Controllers and only 13 were reinstalled so I got rid of some deadwood, but the reinstallation froze a couple of times before everything worked and I had a clean Bootlog. Bootlog.txt has the same number of lines as previously, but fewer audio kernel items show enumeration delays which are shorter but still variable, which is an improvement. However two early normal reboots (before reinstalling TR and WF) hung with the same old symptoms, so the problem isn't solved. Since it's only occasional, I think I can live with it until a major failure tells us with hindsight what's causing it. Might be imagination, but I think it might be worse since a recent Windows Update to Media Player (I have v.9.00.00.3075) whose details I forget. I am also wondering about hardware or bad archived drivers, and maybe an occasional floppy disk read problem is related as I reinstalled the FD controller and replaced the drive without much improvement. Disks go bad quickly in our warm humid sea-air environment which adds more uncertainty, but when several new ones out of a sealed pack won't read I know that isn't the cause. (CD's grow surface fungus here in only about 6 weeks and air conditioning isn't an option as power starts at 25 cents a unit and increases with usage to a maximum of 51. I keep a sealed 'desiccant box' for critical stuff.) Thank you again - I am lucky to have access to such excellent assistance. Any other suggestions you have will be most welcome. Alan > Disks go bad quickly in our warm humid sea-air > environment ... etc., etc., I keep a sealed 'desiccant box' > for critical stuff.) Jeepers, Alan! - don't know if we can compete with that <g> Does the fungus grow on the Motherboard too? (Serious question!) If so, you might need some serious AV utilities. (Not so serious comment) My thoughts - when I read your first post - were hardware issues, but needed to know a little more background. Hell's Bells! What a story!! > Uninstalling TR and Waveflow editor (my only two audio programs apart from > WMP) made no difference to enumeration delays on reboot. No, I *think* we can probably disregard software for the time being. But the biggest worry seems to be :- > it pre-dates and was unaffected by: > - a clean reinstall of WinMe in a new folder after > a major crash caused by memory failure. Apart from the alarm bells ringing re: memory failure, not too sure what you mean by "a new folder" following a "clean install" - so let's ignore the 'memory failure' and 'new folder' aspect for a moment. If the problem's still there after a clean install, then 'hardware' has to be in the frame of contenders. However, another point you mentioned earlier :- "Problem occurs on bootup - but a reset is always successful." Are you talking about the very first boot of the day? Or, a 'cold boot' (i.e. power-down, followed (almost immediately) by a power-up? I'm wondering about a 'slow/sluggish' HD spin-up time - a 'reset' usually keeps the HD running - well not long enough to stop. How far up the BLA list do these 'delays' occur? When the PC boots 'normally' are the 'delays' eliminated (vastly reduced)? BTW - As an 'interesting exercise' <vbg> it might be worth 'Removing' your audio drivers again and temporally disabling your VIA AC97 Audio Controller in your BIOS for a couple of days to see how the boot sequence behaves. See if anything else shows up in BLA. Whilst you're at it, you could decide which is more interesting, watching your PC booting up or watching paint dry. Personally, I rate them about the same <g> Certainly an odd-ball problem, and I've no real answers at the moment. Good luck Mart > Thank you, Mart. About 40 re-boots later things are a bit better and I am > a [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > Alan Hi Mart. >Does the fungus grow on the Motherboard too? Yes, and the best way to ruin a floppy drive is to infect it with fungus from a bad disk - gotta practice real careful 'safe hex' with floppies. In this climate (it's 11.30pm and still 29?C and 86% humidity) a lot of components fail after about 2 years or sometimes less. My last motherboard failure was caused by corrosion of socket-to-board connections from a CPU fan blowing dust with significant salt content over them. First to go was LPT1 but I got by with a USB printer for another 3 months. Our local repairman knew the problem and gave me a replacement that aimed the airflow elsewhere. That was 18 months ago so this one might also be on the way out... >My thoughts - when I read your first post - were hardware issues Hardware is always in the back of my mind too, but software problems can be confusingly similar. (My way of distinguishing them is in a site I put together for locals with computer problems at http://www.geocities.com/mirihika and you are welcome to copy anything you wish. If I've got stuff badly wrong please tell me.) Once I've eliminated software all I can do is wait until the problem is bad enough for a trip to the repairman. >not too sure what you mean by "a new folder" following a "clean install" MS KB article 277648 - a handy way of ruling out bad system files that takes less than an hour and is easily reversed. If a problem is unaffected it can't be due to Windows. As to why I did it, a memory card had failed and wrecked a lot of system files but thankfully no data (took Scandisk in a DOS boot 48 hours to clean up thousands of cross-linkages) and a normal reinstall with Windows Setup kept crashing halfway through with a cryptic error message. A 'new folder' workaround was the only way I could restore Windows from an OEM CD. >Are you talking about the very first boot of the day? No, seems to be random and even sometimes happens from a warm restart. What I meant was I *never* get two in a row. >I'm wondering about a 'slow/sluggish' HD spin-up time There would be other symptoms, surely? I have occasional crashes during Standby and occasional Windows Explorer page faults but otherwise things seem to be working OK. However, I guess the HD *could* be on the way out... >How far up the BLA list do these 'delays' occur? Varies, but mostly about 2/3 of the way through. The whole boot sequence takes about 2? minutes. >When the PC boots 'normally' are the 'delays' eliminated (vastly reduced)? A failed boot doesn't give me a complete logfile so I can't examine the problem area - all I can do is compare with a good one and note what was going on just before it failed. The audio device delays in successful boots vary in length from 15-20 seconds to over 200, and there are also delays varying from 5 to 20 seconds for the Floppy Disk controller and sometimes large ones for Client for Microsoft Networks. Things aren't consistent from one boot to the next, which again suggests failing hardware. >it might be worth 'Removing' your audio drivers again... I'll give it a go, but if you think I've covered all the likely software possibilities I may just back up everything and wait for something more serious to happen. I'm sure it will sooner or later and I'll let you know what it was. It's all useful learning now I'm retired and have the time to pursue all the stuff I never had a chance to during my working years. Not enthusiastic about watching paint dry though - unlike a reboot very little ever seems to happen! Thanks again, Mart. Alan Hi Alan, >>Does the fungus grow on the Motherboard too? > Yes, ... and so this one might also be on the way > out... Worrying prospect - but alas, possible - or probable in your environment! >>My thoughts - when I read your first post - were hardware issues > Hardware is always in the back of my mind too, but software problems can > be > confusingly similar. Indeed! - but slow (and painfully slow!) enumertion sounds like Hardware - unless something silly happens with the registry, in which case I would have expected other issues (like slow keyboard and mouse and rasping sounds). Mmm.. see what you mean <g> But that would be more consistant with frequent catastophic boot-ups. > My way of distinguishing them is in a site I put together at :- > http://www.geocities.com/mirihika Neat site! Nice one Alan. >>not too sure what you mean by "a new folder" following a "clean install" > MS KB article 277648 Ah! - Long forgotton about that option - but have never had recourse to use it. >>Are you talking about the very first boot of the day? > No, seems to be random and even sometimes happens from a warm restart. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > seem to be working OK. However, I guess the HD *could* be on the way > out... Agreed, just clutching really... but for your own peace of mind, might be worth d/l'ing your HD manufacturer's test utility and giving it a bit of a thrash. Not that that necessarily proves anything, I have two (new) identical 80Gb HD's on this box and one sounds like a tin can full of nuts and bolts rattling around. The other purrs along, almost silently. The test utility gives them both 100% clean bill of health. Time will tell, I suppose. >>How far up the BLA list do these 'delays' occur? > Varies, but mostly about 2/3 of the way through. The whole boot sequence > takes about 2? minutes. Another straw <g> >>When the PC boots 'normally' are the 'delays' >>eliminated (vastly reduced)? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > from > one boot to the next, which again suggests failing hardware. The same straw, and back around the thought loop. >>it might be worth 'Removing' your audio drivers again... > I'll give it a go, but if you think I've covered all the likely software > possibilities I may just back up everything and wait for something more > serious to happen. Yes, and just keep the Audio utils to an absolute minimum. Enable and disable your VIA AC97 Audio Controller from time to time and see if you can find any commonality. Daft thought, but I suppose you are using WinMe drivers? Any FAQ's on your mobo site? Lateral idea - A new PCI sound card?? > I'm sure it will sooner or later and I'll let you know > what it was. It's all useful learning now I'm retired and have the time to > pursue all the stuff I never had a chance to during my working years. Not > enthusiastic about watching paint dry though - unlike a reboot very little > ever seems to happen! You can learn something every day with Windows > Thanks again, Mart. > > Alan Your welcome Alan and I'll look forward to hearing of a positive outcome - even if that means another new mobo <g> Good luck with it Mart Hi Mart. >might be worth d/l'ing your HD manufacturer's test utility and giving it a bit of a thrash. Quantum/Maxtor don't seem to have a test utility but IMHO they do have a web page that sucks. Instead I used Hitachi's bootable CD-ROM image http://www.hitachigst.com/downloads/dft373_25.iso since my floppy drive is temperamental, and it gave the HD a clean bill of health. >Not that that necessarily proves anything True. But I would expect a sealed unit to be less affected by environment than everything else. >Enable and disable your VIA AC97 Audio Controller from time to time and see if you can find any commonality Will do. >I suppose you are using WinMe drivers? Yes, except where VIA Tech or other suppliers have something specific >Any FAQ's on your mobo site? Nothing relevant. VIA is another WPTS. >Lateral idea - A new PCI sound card?? I've been having the same thought, but waiting for things to get worse so I know which bit of hardware is the problem. I'll let you know when it all happens, Mart. Hindsight is always wonderful. Alan http://www.maxtor.com/portal/site/Maxtor/menuitem.3c67e325e0a6b1f6294198b0913460 68/?channelpath=/en_us/Support/Software%20Downloads/ATA%20Hard%20Drives&download ID=22 Or: http://tinyurl.com/5hksx Shane > Hi Mart. > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Alan Thanks Shane ;-) The very same one I used for my box of nuts and bolts <g> Mart > http://www.maxtor.com/portal/site/Maxtor/menuitem.3c67e325e0a6b1f6294198b0913460 68/?channelpath=/en_us/Support/Software%20Downloads/ATA%20Hard%20Drives&download ID=22 > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >> >> Alan Alan, good to hear that your HD tests OK (but see Shane's links to the Maxtor URL) >>Not that that necessarily proves anything > True. But I would expect a sealed unit to be less affected by environment > than everything else. Unless there's fungus on the exposed underside pcb of course <g> > I'll let you know when it all happens, Mart. Hindsight is always > wonderful. I always thought that I had 20-20 vision 'til I lost my specs. Mart > Hi Mart. > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Alan Thank you Shane and Mart. Somehow I missed that link and found heaps of articles about PowerMax but no download. (I did say the site sucked!) Unfortunately the floppy drive problem has struck again and I can't use it. I am using a new disk, I replaced that drive 6 weeks ago and reinstalled the FD controller with a new HSFLOP.PDR last week. Furthermore I am now getting variable enumeration delays with Client for Microsoft Networks, so more and more things are pointing to the motherboard as the problem. (Belatedly remembered I no longer have a sound card as the audio is on-board too.) I'm going to sit tight and wait. Might clean the mobo meantime to see if that helps. Watch this space... Alan |
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