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Windows Forum / Windows Vista / Administration / April 2007

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Become REAL Administrator

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D3DAiM - 01 Apr 2007 11:26 GMT
Vista Ultimate x64

Alright, here's the rundown.

I want to become and absolute Administrator of Vista.

I do not want to have it complaining about proper permissions to alter a
file. I should not have to right click and "Run As Administrator". I should
not have to use a password and log into a special account.

All I ask is total access and control of my operating system.

So far: I have disabled UAC, I have an auto login to my Administrator
account, I have enabled administrator account status in the local security
policy setup.

Yet, after all this, I still am nagged that I do not have proper permissions
or administrator status to move, delete, or edit files!

Security is NOT a problem here, don't wory about it. All I ask if for
control of this $250 OS.
Kerry Brown - 01 Apr 2007 16:08 GMT
> Vista Ultimate x64
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Security is NOT a problem here, don't wory about it. All I ask if for
> control of this $250 OS.

Remove Vista and install Windows XP or an older version of Windows. You are
looking for an OS that doesn't enforce security. All the good ones (Vista,
OS/X, Linux, Unix, AIX, Solaris, etc.) do.

Signature

Kerry Brown
Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
http://www.vistahelp.ca

D3DAiM - 01 Apr 2007 17:46 GMT
> > Vista Ultimate x64
> >
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> looking for an OS that doesn't enforce security. All the good ones (Vista,
> OS/X, Linux, Unix, AIX, Solaris, etc.) do.

Unfortunately, I do need Vista for some applications and uses. I would like
be administrator.
Kerry Brown - 01 Apr 2007 18:31 GMT
>> Thanks for the sarcasm. However, I do have a dual-boot setup with linux
>> and it does, indeed, have the security/control I need and executes it
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> like
> be administrator.

Although sarcastic my post was serious. If you logon with an administrator
account you are an administrator. What problems are you experiencing?

Signature

Kerry Brown
Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
http://www.vistahelp.ca

D3DAiM - 02 Apr 2007 17:50 GMT
Alright, a most recent experience.

There is a MSN folder in my C:\Program Files (x86) that I cannot delete
because I do not have the permission to delete as administrator. Although I
am logged in, I can do nothing in the permission system to grant me this one
ability that I am missing. Every time I attempt to grant myself the
permission over this single folder (there are others as well), I receive an
"Access Denied".

> >> Thanks for the sarcasm. However, I do have a dual-boot setup with linux
> >> and it does, indeed, have the security/control I need and executes it
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Although sarcastic my post was serious. If you logon with an administrator
> account you are an administrator. What problems are you experiencing?
Kerry Brown - 02 Apr 2007 20:51 GMT
Program Files is a system area. Changes here affect all users of the computer. Because of this there is a change in the way the NTFS permissions are assigned in Vista compared to XP. You must take ownership of the folder. Once you are the owner you will be able to change the permissions as you like. Here is how to take ownership. This is copied from Help and Support.

     To take ownership of a folder
    1.  Right-click the folder that you want to take ownership of, and then click Properties.
         
           2.  Click the Security tab, click Advanced, and then click the Owner tab.
         
           3.  Click Edit. If you are prompted for an administrator password or confirmation, type the password or provide confirmation.
         
           4.  Click the name of the person you want to give ownership to.
         
           5.  If you want that person to be the owner of files and subfolders in this folder, select the Replace owner on subcontainers and objects check box.
         
           6.  Click OK.
         
   

Before you complain that you are the only user on your computer you have to understand how Windows works. There are many user accounts on your computer that hackers can take advantage of besides yours. Just a few are Administrator, Guest, Local System, Trusted Installer, Network Service, and more. All of these accounts are protected in various ways and files and folders are also protected from these accounts. It is the way security works. Without this type of security your computer is open to malware no matter what programs you install. The current animated cursors exploit is a good example of the dangers of weak security. In Vista (with UAC on) the damage this exploit can do is minimal even if you have no security programs installed. It is easily repaired and you never lose control of your pc. In XP even with a firewall, AV, anti-spyware, whatever installed if you surf to an infected site the system will be infected and owned by someone else.

Signature

Kerry Brown
Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
http://www.vistahelp.ca

> Alright, a most recent experience.
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>> Although sarcastic my post was serious. If you logon with an administrator
>> account you are an administrator. What problems are you experiencing?
Hugh Wyn Griffith - 02 Apr 2007 21:33 GMT

> I do not have the permission to delete as administrator. Although I 
> am logged in

Sometimes the problem may be because VISTA has two levels of
Administrator so far as I can see. I'm not technical expert on this but
I get the impression that unless you specify otherwise Users are in
fact labeled as User/Adminstrators (or is it Administrator/Users?) but
there is a higher level of adminstrator set up when you install VISTA
and this top level Administrator log on is hidden unless you make a
change manually somewhere in the innards of VISTA's works.

I did it at the time but forget which message it was here that talked
about it. But I know have a Administrator Icon on my logon screen as
well as the two users.

I did also go in and upgrade my own User Permissions as far as I could
and I've not run into this problem any more.

One more thing I did although I don't know if it actually did anything
was to "tke control" of the entire C: drive that VISTA is on when I
boot to it.

I'm sorry not to be able to give you a path to follow but I'm sure
others can, if these hidden barriers are part of your problem.
Kerry Brown - 02 Apr 2007 22:02 GMT
Both of those actions have compromised the security of Vista with no real
benefit to you other than a few seconds of time if and when you have to
modify permissions in system areas.

Signature

Kerry Brown
Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
http://www.vistahelp.ca

>> I do not have the permission to delete as administrator. Although I
>> am logged in
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> I'm sorry not to be able to give you a path to follow but I'm sure
> others can, if these hidden barriers are part of your problem.
Hugh Wyn Griffith - 03 Apr 2007 02:07 GMT
Possibly but I operate in a pretty secure environment and my present
goal is to explore rather than depend on.
Kerry Brown - 03 Apr 2007 04:25 GMT
I can see people not liking UAC and turning it off even though I don't agree
with them. The changes you made really have no impact on using the computer
so I don't understand why you'd compromise security to make them. I'm not
trying to start an argument. I'm just trying to understand what the benefit
of the changes might be.

Signature

Kerry Brown
Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
http://www.vistahelp.ca

> Possibly but I operate in a pretty secure environment and my present
> goal is to explore rather than depend on.
Hugh Wyn Griffith - 03 Apr 2007 21:55 GMT

> I'm not trying to start an argument. I'm just trying to understand what the
> benefit of the changes might be.

I fully appreciate your position and not being screamed at for my stupidity
<g>

I guess the short answer would be irritation while setting up the system and
adding applications and utilities a step at a time coupled with the hope that
the changes would reduce the number of times I was stopped in my tracks and
told I was not authorized to do something when the label attached to me as a
user said I was an administrator as well.

Having found empirically that Run as Administrator would allow installation
more smoothly I have tended to install everything that way and wanted to up my
Permissions to match.

There is absolutely no danger of any third party sitting down at my computer
and creating havoc as an adminstrator -- I can do that very well unaided --
and given a hardware firewall plus sotware firewall, phishing protection not
just from the system but from my own knowledge of what that is all about
coupled with the way I use the internet .... is why I say I have a fairly
secure environment.
cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user) - 03 Apr 2007 11:06 GMT
On Mon, 2 Apr 2007 09:50:01 -0700, D3DAiM

>Alright, a most recent experience.

>There is a MSN folder in my C:\Program Files (x86) that I cannot delete
>because I do not have the permission to delete as administrator. Although I
>am logged in, I can do nothing in the permission system to grant me this one
>ability that I am missing. Every time I attempt to grant myself the
>permission over this single folder (there are others as well), I receive an
>"Access Denied".

I'll ask the obvious questions...
 - what file is it and where is it located?
 - what put it there?

Not all blockages are UAC etc.  If you can happily manage other files
within "C:\Program Files" except this one, then I doubt if it's UAC.  

It's either actively-asserted behavior, or the app has tatoo'd itself
with NTFS permissions that precludes your control, or both.

When software acts against your interests, and does so without
disclosure, I consider this malicious, hence "malware".  

Such malware includes:
 - traditional viruses and other extra-legal malware
 - legal or pose-as-legal commercial malware, unwanted spread
 - malware in wanted software, self-serving, e.g. license enforcement
 - malware in wanted software, serving others, e.g. DRM
 - custom software installed by a "personal" adversary

Antivirus scanners should pick up the first and some of the second,
and "antispyware" should pick up the second and some of the first.
It's up to you to detect and manage the next two, since law and the
industry are not on your side.  

The last is the toughest, because the software you are after may be
unique to your system (i.e. custom-written for your attack), and if
so, nothing will recognise it on a black-list detection basis, and
searching forums won't find exact-match help either.

Oh duh, on re-reading this I see it's the MSN folder itself that you
are trying to kill.  Perhaps that's specifically protected by the OS
(a la System File Protection, later called Windows File Protection,
that came of age in WinME?).

I can't think of any reason why you or the system would "need" MSN
that isn't a leveraging of the desktop monopoly by MS.  Any takers?

Actually, I'll leave the stuff I wrote first, in place, because it may
still apply.  Malware can use any names, including those normally
associated with other (legitimate) things, so...

>-- Risk Management is the clue that asks:
     "Why do I keep open buckets of petrol next to all the
     ashtrays in the lounge, when I don't even have a car?"
>----------------------- ------ ---- --- -- - -  -    -
Robert Wolfe - 07 Apr 2007 10:58 GMT
> On Mon, 2 Apr 2007 09:50:01 -0700, D3DAiM
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>>an
>>"Access Denied".

> Oh duh, on re-reading this I see it's the MSN folder itself that you
> are trying to kill.  Perhaps that's specifically protected by the OS
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>      ashtrays in the lounge, when I don't even have a car?"
>>----------------------- ------ ---- --- -- - -  -    -
jrkrogh - 28 Apr 2007 02:38 GMT
> > Vista Ultimate x64
> >
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> looking for an OS that doesn't enforce security. All the good ones (Vista,
> OS/X, Linux, Unix, AIX, Solaris, etc.) do.
cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user) - 02 Apr 2007 09:07 GMT
On Sun, 1 Apr 2007 03:26:02 -0700, D3DAiM

>Vista Ultimate x64

>I want to become and absolute Administrator of Vista.
>All I ask is total access and control of my operating system.

>Security is NOT a problem here, don't wory about it. All I ask if for
>control of this $250 OS.

You can't have what you want, because MS has dissolved the line
between what you (as human user) do during your login session, and
what is done during that session by programs and content that can be
automatically run in various ways, or that can fool you into taking
greater than apparent risks due to a combination of poor UI (e.g.
hiding .PIF extensions) and poor type discipline (e.g. running raw
.EXE code in a .PIF, groping malformed .ANI when "view as text" etc.)

So you have to retreat to the "panic room" while the bad guys are left
to stride around the rest of the house you thought you'd owned.

UAC is just the lock on your panic room door, without which you'd be
that much more at risk.  Instead of getting angered by that lock, get
angry about why you have to cower there in the first place.

>------------------ ----- ---- --- -- - -  -    -
 The rights you save may be your own
>------------------ ----- ---- --- -- - -  -    -
kraut - 02 Apr 2007 13:52 GMT
>>Vista Ultimate x64
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>Security is NOT a problem here, don't wory about it. All I ask if for
>>control of this $250 OS.

>You can't have what you want, because MS has dissolved the line
>between what you (as human user) do during your login session, and
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>that much more at risk.  Instead of getting angered by that lock, get
>angry about why you have to cower there in the first place.

I guess it has gotten to the point now where MS is telling a person
how they can and can not use their system and what they can do on them
now!!  Why should that surprise anyone here?!?!?

If a persons box is connected to the net I MIGHT be able to see the
reasoning behind it what with viruses and all but what about people
who use they boxes without being connected?!?!  Beleive it or not
there are a lot of them out there yet!!!

Maybe the next MS system should be named "Hal" and let IT just control
everything about your life!!!
Paul - 02 Apr 2007 15:16 GMT
Vith Vista, why do I need Yahoo scanning all my email downloads, Norton,
McAfee, firewalls or any of the other protection software?
Personally, I will stick with ME and XP. I have never had a virus or trojan
AND I am careful where I go on the internet.
cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user) - 02 Apr 2007 18:18 GMT
On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 08:52:49 -0400, kraut

>>>Vista Ultimate x64

>>>I want to become and absolute Administrator of Vista.
>>>All I ask is total access and control of my operating system.
>>>Security is NOT a problem here, don't wory about it. All I ask if for
>>>control of this $250 OS.

>>You can't have what you want, because MS has dissolved the line
>>between what you (as human user) do during your login session, and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>So you have to retreat to the "panic room" while the bad guys are left
>>to stride around the rest of the house you thought you'd owned.

>>UAC is the lock on your panic room door, ... Instead of getting
>> angered by that, get angry about why you have to cower there

>I guess it has gotten to the point now where MS is telling a person
>how they can and can not use their system and what they can do on them
>now!!  Why should that surprise anyone here?!?!?

That's a separate topic, with regards to DRM and other automated
license enforcement strategies.

The point that it has gotten to, is:
 - most PCs are on the 'net
 - many of these PCs are infected
 - many of these PCs have broadband power

The sum total of infected PCs (i.e. botnets) can rival or swamp the
strongest servers in terms of power and bandwidth.  Most email is
spam, and 95% of spam is sent through botnets, so in a real sense,
these botnets are a (if not the) dominant infrastructure on the 'net.

>If a persons box is connected to the net I MIGHT be able to see the
>reasoning behind it what with viruses and all but what about people
>who use they boxes without being connected?!?!  Beleive it or not
>there are a lot of them out there yet!!!

Only if a system is isolated entirely from the rest of the infosphere,
could one expect it to be unexposed to attack.  A PC that is not on
the 'net is also not kept patched, and if it's still presented with
USB sticks and CDRs from "outside", it's still at risk - and that
small risk exposure is enlarged++ because of outdated code and av.

>Maybe the next MS system should be named "Hal" and let IT just control
>everything about your life!!!

The system already controls itself - Windows hardly ever stops
fiddling with things automatically, and that tendency has increased
steadily since the Win9x days.  

The difference with UAC is that it asks you first   ;-)

See:  http://cquirke.mvps.org/exblog/onehand.htm

This was written before UAC was called that, and it attempts to do
what you describe in a more general way - the idea is that uber-hairy
"admin" things should be done in an environment that is automatically
isolated from other systems, hardened internally, and utterly truthful
in UI.  An uncomy place for casual use (by design) and unfriendly to
those who need everything dummied down (by design).

IOW: Data access, Internet access, ful system rights.  Pick one.

>---------- ----- ---- --- -- - -  -    -
  Don't pay malware vendors - boycott Sony
>---------- ----- ---- --- -- - -  -    -
D3DAiM - 02 Apr 2007 20:54 GMT
I feel like I have been hijacked..

> On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 08:52:49 -0400, kraut
>
[quoted text clipped - 67 lines]
>    Don't pay malware vendors - boycott Sony
> >---------- ----- ---- --- -- - -  -    -
cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user) - 03 Apr 2007 11:12 GMT
On Mon, 2 Apr 2007 12:54:15 -0700, D3DAiM

>I feel like I have been hijacked..

I know the feeling, but it's a 2 x 2 state chart...

                      I feel like I've been hijacked    I feel OK
I'm hijacked                       A                              B
I'm OK                               C                              D

Guesstimate % pie chart slice size for states A, B, C and D

Next, weight the significance of states A, B, C and D

What pain do you want to endure today?

:-)

>---------- ----- ---- --- -- - -  -    -
  On the 'net, *everyone* can hear you scream
>---------- ----- ---- --- -- - -  -    -
Ronnie Vernon MVP - 02 Apr 2007 21:34 GMT
Even a system that is not connected to the internet is still at risk. Every
time a CD/DVD/Floppy Disk or any other kind of media is inserted into the
system, there is a risk.

Social engineering (security)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_engineering_%28security%29#Trojan_horse.2Fgimmes

Another issue is that with the proliferation of broadband any PC that does
get infected has the potential to broadcast that same infection to other
systems, worldwide in the time span of a few minutes. So the statement
"These security issues do not affect ME and if MY system does get infected,
that is MY problem" is no longer legitimate or responsible.
Signature


Ronnie Vernon
Microsoft MVP
Windows Shell/User

>>>Vista Ultimate x64
>>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> Maybe the next MS system should be named "Hal" and let IT just control
> everything about your life!!!
Jupiter Jones  [MVP] - 03 Apr 2007 17:48 GMT
But only to itself as long as NOTHING leaves that computer.

Signature

Jupiter Jones  [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar
http://www.dts-l.org

> Even a system that is not connected to the internet is still at
> risk. Every time a CD/DVD/Floppy Disk or any other kind of media is
> inserted into the system, there is a risk.
D3DAiM - 04 Apr 2007 18:36 GMT
Alright!

This is no philosophical discussion that I intended.

In a recent discovery, I have noticed I cannot even access
C:\Users\Administrator\Local Settings without an "Access Denied"..

> But only to itself as long as NOTHING leaves that computer.
>
> > Even a system that is not connected to the internet is still at
> > risk. Every time a CD/DVD/Floppy Disk or any other kind of media is
> > inserted into the system, there is a risk.
Ronnie Vernon MVP - 04 Apr 2007 20:03 GMT
This is by design. The folder "Local Settings" is called a Junction and is
only there for compatibility purposes. When an older program is installed
and looks for this folder, the junction automatically redirects the program
to the new location in Vista, which is:

C:\Users\user name\AppData\Local

These junctions will have an arrow on the folder similar to a standard
shortcut arrow.

Signature

Ronnie Vernon
Microsoft MVP
Windows Shell/User

> Alright!
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>> > risk. Every time a CD/DVD/Floppy Disk or any other kind of media is
>> > inserted into the system, there is a risk.
D3DAiM - 04 Apr 2007 20:16 GMT
I see. I would still like access to this folder however. How may I go about
doing that?

> This is by design. The folder "Local Settings" is called a Junction and is
> only there for compatibility purposes. When an older program is installed
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> >> > risk. Every time a CD/DVD/Floppy Disk or any other kind of media is
> >> > inserted into the system, there is a risk.
Ronnie Vernon MVP - 05 Apr 2007 01:24 GMT
There is nothing in that folder? It does not contain any useful data, since
it's sole reason for existing is to simply redirect programs that try to
write to the folder with that name on to the proper folder.

If you simply want to know the target where a Junction or Symbolic Link is
pointing to you can do this from a command prompt.

Go to Start and type   cmd   and click the cmd.exe program.

The command window should open at the  C:\Users\<username> folder.

Type    dir /AHL     and press the ENTER key. (Note the space in the
command)

The result will be a list of folders in that users folder.

A typical junction will look like this:

<date>  <time>  <JUNCTION>   SendTo
[C:\Users\<username>\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\SendTo]

This shows that the information for the old  Send To  folder is now
contained in the folder that the path points to in the brackets. You should
see all of the junction points with the old name of the folder and the new
location for that folder in Vista. Run this same command on the root drive
to see more junctions.

Here is more information on Junctions and Symbolic Links.

Symbolic Links:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa365680.aspx

Hard Links and Junctions:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa365006.aspx

NTFS junction point - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTFS_junction_point

Signature

Ronnie Vernon
Microsoft MVP
Windows Shell/User

>I see. I would still like access to this folder however. How may I go about
> doing that?
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>> >> > risk. Every time a CD/DVD/Floppy Disk or any other kind of media is
>> >> > inserted into the system, there is a risk.
D3DAiM - 05 Apr 2007 01:32 GMT
Ok, you are right. That command did work.

Now, why can I not delete The MSN folder (among other various folders) in
the C:\Program Files (x86)? I get an access denied. I cannot audit either, I
get an access denied.

> There is nothing in that folder? It does not contain any useful data, since
> it's sole reason for existing is to simply redirect programs that try to
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
> >> >> > risk. Every time a CD/DVD/Floppy Disk or any other kind of media is
> >> >> > inserted into the system, there is a risk.
Carl G - 06 Apr 2007 04:10 GMT
Signature

Carl G

> There is nothing in that folder? It does not contain any useful data,
> since it's sole reason for existing is to simply redirect programs that
> try to write to the folder with that name on to the proper folder.

I still don't understand this , Then what good is it if it just sends
everything along to the real folder ?
If it sends EVERYTHING along , It sounds like it is just a wasted stop along
the way. No wonder Vista is
slower then XP is. All them wasted stops.
I just don't get it.
Carl G

> If you simply want to know the target where a Junction or Symbolic Link is
> pointing to you can do this from a command prompt.
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
>>> >> > risk. Every time a CD/DVD/Floppy Disk or any other kind of media is
>>> >> > inserted into the system, there is a risk.
Ronnie Vernon MVP - 06 Apr 2007 05:57 GMT
Carl

You need to read the entire thread. The junctions and Symbolic Links are
there for older programs and applications that were written for earlier
versions of Windows, like XP for instance. These programs will look for the
folders names that existed in XP, but have been replaced with a newer group
of folders, with different names in Vista.

If they do not find these old folders, they will simply throw an error and
quit. The junctions prevent this.

Signature

Ronnie Vernon
Microsoft MVP
Windows Shell/User

>> There is nothing in that folder? It does not contain any useful data,
>> since it's sole reason for existing is to simply redirect programs that
[quoted text clipped - 72 lines]
>>>> >> > is
>>>> >> > inserted into the system, there is a risk.
cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user) - 06 Apr 2007 13:31 GMT
On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 21:57:18 -0700, "Ronnie Vernon MVP"

>You need to read the entire thread. The junctions and Symbolic Links are
>there for older programs and applications that were written for earlier
>versions of Windows, like XP for instance. These programs will look for the
>folders names that existed in XP, but have been replaced with a newer group
>of folders, with different names in Vista.

>If they do not find these old folders, they will simply throw an error and
>quit. The junctions prevent this.

I think he's asking why they changed the locations and names in the
first place, and the answer may be partly cosmetic (get rid of the
patronizing "My..." stuff) and to undo some ill-advised nesting
defaults that wre applied before Vista.

It also lets the compatibility cord be cut down the line, at a time
when one prefers to avoid current legacy apps that "break the rules"
by accessing such paths directly, rather than shell lookup.

>---------- ----- ---- --- -- - -  -    -
  Do it once, properly
>---------- ----- ---- --- -- - -  -    -
D3DAiM - 29 Apr 2007 20:42 GMT
Yes, it's very stupid that such addresses HAD to be changed..

> On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 21:57:18 -0700, "Ronnie Vernon MVP"
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>    Do it once, properly
> >---------- ----- ---- --- -- - -  -    -
Carl G - 07 Apr 2007 01:04 GMT
I still don't understand Kerry.
My understanding is that these junction folders were there for security
reasons,not just compatability for older OS.
If that is correct,then just passing from them to the new location has no
security at all if they just get passed along.

Signature

Carl G

> Carl
>
[quoted text clipped - 83 lines]
>>>>> >> > is
>>>>> >> > inserted into the system, there is a risk.
D3DAiM - 09 Apr 2007 03:18 GMT
Well..

Back to my problem:

I would like to be able to access files without an "access denied". I am
logged onto the administrator account right now. That SHOULD be enough.

However, all hidden files located in C:\Users\Administrators give me an
"access denied" error when I attempt to access the files.

This includes the Start Menu, Application Data, and Cookies folders among
others.

There are also various folders in the Pram Files I cannot access/modify.
Carl G - 10 Apr 2007 13:47 GMT
So what is the answer here .

Signature

Carl G

>I still don't understand Kerry.
> My understanding is that these junction folders were there for security
[quoted text clipped - 90 lines]
>>>>>> >> > is
>>>>>> >> > inserted into the system, there is a risk.
KWilson - 05 Apr 2007 20:36 GMT
I have said this before and will say it again - Instead of an box popping up
with "Access Denied", the box should say "Junction or Symbolic Folder.  
Folder Contains No Files.  Please See Help Files".  Or something similar,
then, Ron, your very helpful information could be put into the Help files on
the users system.

> This is by design. The folder "Local Settings" is called a Junction and is
> only there for compatibility purposes. When an older program is installed
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> >> > risk. Every time a CD/DVD/Floppy Disk or any other kind of media is
> >> > inserted into the system, there is a risk.
Ronnie Vernon MVP - 06 Apr 2007 00:58 GMT
I don't disagree with what you are saying, but most all of the underlying
structure of the OS is hidden from view with the focus on making things
easier for the typical user. Most people will not be concerned with things
like junctions, symbolic links, and etc.

In fact these folders are hidden by default and a user must change at least
2 of these default options to even make these folders appear in Windows
Explorer. For the non-typical tech savvy user who really wants to dive deep
into how things work, there is plenty of resources available and these users
normally know where to find this information, like these newsgroups. :)

Signature

Ronnie Vernon
Microsoft MVP
Windows Shell/User

>I have said this before and will say it again - Instead of an box popping
>up
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>> >> > risk. Every time a CD/DVD/Floppy Disk or any other kind of media is
>> >> > inserted into the system, there is a risk.
mjf260 - 07 Apr 2007 11:28 GMT
This is beyond "security" and has reached "stupidity".  Yes, we need secure
operating systems and as mentioned most "robust" OS's are secure.  However,
all those mentioned also have provisions for "GOD" keys.  In the OS390 world,
it's called non-cancelable.  

I am building this machine, I bought it, I installed it, I setup the Users,
etc.,   I am God and I am tired of being nagged by Vista already.  

Give us a REAL administrator’s key.
XxDeMoNxX - 05 Apr 2007 07:43 GMT
Never go above XP never switch to Linux :P

> Vista Ultimate x64
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Security is NOT a problem here, don't wory about it. All I ask if for
> control of this $250 OS.
D3DAiM - 05 Apr 2007 07:56 GMT
*sigh*

I've got Ubuntu on dual boot.

> Never go above XP never switch to Linux :P
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> > Security is NOT a problem here, don't wory about it. All I ask if for
> > control of this $250 OS.
D3DAiM - 05 Apr 2007 18:10 GMT
Niether do I have access to my own C:\Users\Administrator\Start Menu or
C:\Users\Administrator\Application Data among others. "Access Denied"

> *sigh*
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> > > Security is NOT a problem here, don't wory about it. All I ask if for
> > > control of this $250 OS.
C.B. - 09 Apr 2007 02:10 GMT
"Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do"

> Niether do I have access to my own C:\Users\Administrator\Start Menu or
> C:\Users\Administrator\Application Data among others. "Access Denied"
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> > > > Security is NOT a problem here, don't wory about it. All I ask if for
> > > > control of this $250 OS.
D3DAiM - 10 Apr 2007 14:04 GMT
LOL

Ok, so I understand they "junctions" then. How about the folders in my
C:\Program Files that I cannot modify.

Such files include, but are definitely not limited to, the MSN, Windows
Defender, and Windows Mail folders.

> "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do"
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> > > > > Security is NOT a problem here, don't wory about it. All I ask if for
> > > > > control of this $250 OS.
Ronnie Vernon MVP - 10 Apr 2007 22:39 GMT
D3DAiM

There should not be anything in those folders that a user can modify. If
there are any user configurable files for those program folders, they will
be stored in the Users folder tree. If it is a program that does not
recognize Vista and tries to write to files in C:\Program Files, these files
may be virtualized in the:
C:\Users\username\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files\whatever program
folder.

Example: Windows Mail.

The programs installation and core files are located at:

C:\Program Files\Windows Mail.

All of the user configurable files are located at:

C:\Users\username\AppData\Local\Microsoft\Windows Mail

This folder contains files such as logs, user configuration settings, and
all of the stored email, newsgroup messages and other files that are created
or written to when the program is running.

The idea is to keep all of the programs core files secure.

Another issue is that UAC is tightly integrated with Virtualization and
compatibility. If UAC is turned off, this could effect some of these
processes.

Signature

Ronnie Vernon
Microsoft MVP
Windows Shell/User

> LOL
>
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>> > > > > for
>> > > > > control of this $250 OS.
D3DAiM - 11 Apr 2007 00:52 GMT
Alright.

You are saying that anything that is actually stored in the C:\Program Files
cannot be modified, and the modifiable files that *appear* as though they are
in the C:\Program Files are actually stored in
C:\Users\username\AppData\Local folder?

So basically Microsoft has designated what files can be modied and what
cannot, effectively removing what thought control I had over my OS.

I am not interested in the security there is involved this, and I am not too
impressed by the quarrel of simulation that is tricking me.

If Microsoft is not willing to help me out on this, I suppose all I can hope
for is a hacked shell replacement and a bunch of registry changes.

> D3DAiM
>
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
> >> > > > > for
> >> > > > > control of this $250 OS.
 
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