Windows Forum / Windows XP / Basics / December 2004
Why Didn't This Computer Come With An XP CD ?
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Babel17delany - 28 Dec 2004 22:45 GMT Why Didn't This Computer Come With An XP CD ?
Perhaps someone can steer me in the right direction.
I bought a new computer yesterday; the brand is "eMachines". When I looked for the Windows XP CD that always comes with a new computer I didn't find one. There was a "Restore CD".
The instructions that came with the computer stated that if I boot with the "Restore CD" in the CD bay it will allow me to restore Windows XP.
Now it has been my experience to find a Windows XP disk IN ADDITION TO CD with the installed programs, when I buy a new computer. I opened the "Restore CD" in "My Computer" (AFTER I had booted) and found a few folders with some installed programs such as Microsoft Works. I did NOT find a copy of Windows XP.
Thinking that the Windows XP may have been left out of the box by mistake I called "eMachines" technical support. The lady there told me that I would use this "Restore CD" to restore my computer to its original settings if I needed to.
Now I don't know all that much about computers but it seems to me that if I were to have a serious system crash I would need a copy of Windows XP to reinstall. That has happened to me with a Gateway that I have and technical support talked me through reinstalling with the XP CD.
I asked the lady at "eMachine" technical support where XP was on the "Restore CD" and she told me that it WAS in the "Restore CD", but that I could not see it by exploring the CD. This sounds a little fishy to me but then I am not that well versed in computers.
Perhaps this CD can restore an existing but damaged installation of XP to its default settings but what if the Windows folder was damaged beyond repair?
I then asked her what would happen if I had to replace the hard drive in the computer, and put in a new completely blank hard drive. Would this "Restore CD" be able to install XP onto the new hard drive, and how would it do it if I couldn't even find a copy of XP on the CD. She said it could.
So my question is, don't I need an XP disk to use if I have a serious crash ?
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Bob Harris - 28 Dec 2004 23:10 GMT You got what you paid for (eMachines are cheap), and that is not a real XP CD. Of course, they probably forgot to mention that fine point to you before bought it.
Specifically, your PC has an OEM license, meaning that it is only good on the hardware you bought. You can not transfer it to another PC and you can not do major upgrades, like a new motherboard. You may also not be able to do a "repair" installation. But, you probably can do a restore, but that means (1) automatically formating the hard drive and losing everything on it, then (2) installing an image of the PC as they shipped it to you.
If you prefer to avoid the prospect of losing everything on the PC, then get some good backup software and get it fast. Get something that can write a disk image to an external disk (USB, firewire), an use it regularly. Also, occassionally, write a backup to external disk, then copy it to CDs or DVDs. Any good backup software will give you the option to make an image in bite-sized pieces.
I advise against backing up directly to CD or DVD, as one little glitch and the image will not restore. instead, when you manually copy to optical media, you can usually request a "verification", to assure that the copy is 100% correct. Easy CD Creator and Nero both can do this.
I recommend Acronis True Image, but Norton GHOST is a fair alternative.
> Why Didn't This Computer Come With An XP CD ? > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > So my question is, don't I need an XP disk to use if I have a serious > crash ? Rick \ - 28 Dec 2004 23:11 GMT Hi,
There is nothing that states that the manufacturer needs to give you a regular XP CD. What they have given you is an image disk that contains WinXP and all of the supplied programs. This will restore the system to factory state, they aren't giving you an option to install only the OS. You will likely find the WinXP system files under an I386 folder on the hard drive in case you need them.
 Signature Best of Luck,
Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/ Associate Expert - WindowsXP Expert Zone www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
> Why Didn't This Computer Come With An XP CD ? > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > So my question is, don't I need an XP disk to use if I have a serious > crash ? Michael Solomon \(MS-MVP\) - 28 Dec 2004 23:17 GMT Well, not exactly, it depends on what you wish to do. Many manufacturers today provide a restore CD which is as much a convenience for them as it is a money saver as well. The restore CD has the advantage of putting the system back in the condition it was when you purchased it. However, this means it essentially wipes the drive and you start over.
Any applications you've added must be reinstalled but that's the same even if you have an actual XP CD and you must have a backup of your data or you lose that as well. What she has told you is there is no repair function. If things happen as you describe, your only option is to use the restore CD to restore the system to the condition it was right out of the box.
As to what happens if you have to replace the hard drive, I'm not completely sure how this would work and it may vary with system manufacturer as some system manufacturer's might require you to replace the hard drive through them in order for the restore CD to work. That's something I think you need to question them about. In other words, if you replaced the hard drive with a hard drive from some retailer, would the restore CD work as you expect or do you have to purchase the new hard drive through eMachines. You see, some such CDs are BIOS locked and any change of internal hardware might prevent the CD from properly restoring.
Nonetheless, what you are seeing is relatively standard, especially on lower priced systems. Unfortunately, many users are getting burned with this, yours is not the first complaint or question we've seen on this subject. I would always advise any person buying a new computer to make sure an actual CD of the OS is included, one which is identical to the retail version and provides all the options of the retail version. Unfortunately, when I see such questions in newsgroups, it's always after the fact.
You might be able to purchase an actual XP CD through eMachines at a reduced price, you might want to ask them about that and understand, when you purchased your system, you didn't pay for a full retail version of XP, you paid a licensing fee at a very reduced price over the cost of an actual retail version. What you have, is an all or nothing solution. It saves the manufacturer on support costs because if you call with a problem they just tell you to put the restore CD in the drive and run their restore routine. Unfortunately, that's not a fix, that wipes the drive and you start over. Even if you had an actual XP CD I would still recommend in the strongest possible terms that you be well backed up. However, an actual XP CD also includes the ability to do a repair install as well as run a number of repair options from the recovery console none of which are included on this restore CD.
 Signature Michael Solomon MS-MVP Windows Shell/User Backup is a PC User's Best Friend DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/
> Why Didn't This Computer Come With An XP CD ? > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > So my question is, don't I need an XP disk to use if I have a serious > crash ? Ken Blake - 28 Dec 2004 23:32 GMT > Why Didn't This Computer Come With An XP CD ? > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > I did > NOT find a copy of Windows XP. OEM vendors are required by their agreement with Microsoft to give you a means of reinstalling, should it be necessary. They can do this in one of three ways:
1. An OEM copy of Windows
2. A restore CD
3. A hidden partition on your drive, with restore information.
If you don't have 1 or 2, you should have 3, but you should contact your vendor to find out.
Personally, I find both 2 and 3 unacceptable, and would never choose to buy a computer that came with an operating system unless I got a complete generic installation CD for that operating system.
> Thinking that the Windows XP may have been left out of the box > by [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > how would it do it if I couldn't even find a copy of XP on the > CD. She said it could. She's correct. That's the purpose of a restore CD. It lets you load Windows to factory-installed condition. It's not an installation CD with all the regular options, but it you can do what you ask.
 Signature Ken Blake - Microsoft MVP Windows: Shell/User Please reply to the newsgroup
Babel17delany - 28 Dec 2004 23:33 GMT Thank you Bob, Rick & Michael, for the information. It is, of course, too late for me to do much about this now, but I will add this to the list of mistakes that I will not make again (I hope!). Thanks.
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Bruce Chambers - 29 Dec 2004 01:39 GMT > Why Didn't This Computer Come With An XP CD ? > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > So my question is, don't I need an XP disk to use if I have a serious > crash ? Legally, the OEM has met it's contractual obligation to Microsoft by providing a means of returning the PC to its ex-factory state, whether it's a Recovery CD or a Recovery Partition. They are not legally obliged to provide a true installation CD as part of the sale. Reputable, customer-service aware OEMs, like Dell, MPC, and Gateway, do provide a full OEM installation CD, that does permit custom installations and repairs. Many uncaring OEMs, especially those who sell their computers through department stores and chain outlets, such as Compaq, HP, eMachines, and Sony, however, in an effort to save pennies and reduce their support costs by having to hire support people that can only say "Boot from the Recovery CD to return your PC to its original condition," provide only a CD bearing a disk image of the hard drive as it left the factory. These Recovery/Restore CDs cannot perform normal installations, nor can they be used to do any sort of customizations.
Essentially, it boils down to "You get what you pay for."
 Signature Bruce Chambers
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Babel17delany - 30 Dec 2004 00:20 GMT Unfortunately, it appears that I did get what I paid for. I will follow an earlier replier's advice and purchase an external hard drive to back up the computer to. If I crash I will be able to backup from this.
On a related topic, does anyone have any experience with the "Retrospect" program? An external hard drive that I have hooked up to another computer came with this as backup software. How does it compare to others, such as "Norton Ghost"?
>> Why Didn't This Computer Come With An XP CD ? >> [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > > Essentially, it boils down to "You get what you pay for."
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Michael Solomon \(MS-MVP\) - 30 Dec 2004 01:24 GMT Retrospect is a backup program, extremely powerful in that it gives a lot of options for backing up but as such can be a bit confusing for many users.
Ghost is an imaging program that creates an exact sector by sector mirror image of the drive. This is an excellent means of backup but I recommend supplementing any image with regular backups because an Image as is the case with a backup is only as good as the most recent time it was created.
The latest version of Ghost is now essentially the old PowerQuest Drive Image application. Symantec purchased PowerQuest some months ago and while many of their products were maintained, they folded Drive Image into Ghost and while I liked Ghost a lot, I also like Drive Image. While I haven't used it in its current incarnation, Norton Ghost 9.0, from what I can see they have kept Drive Image and its user interface intact and this should serve Ghost users very well now and in the future.
 Signature Michael Solomon MS-MVP Windows Shell/User Backup is a PC User's Best Friend DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/
> Unfortunately, it appears that I did get what I paid for. > I will follow an earlier replier's advice and purchase an external hard [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] >> >> Essentially, it boils down to "You get what you pay for." Babel17delany - 30 Dec 2004 22:47 GMT Thanks. I'm not sure that I understand the difference between a "mirror" and a "backup" but it sounds as if the Retrospect is an adequate program. I try to backup a few times a week.
Michael Solomon (MS-MVP) wrote:
> Retrospect is a backup program, extremely powerful in that it gives a lot of > options for backing up but as such can be a bit confusing for many users. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > they have kept Drive Image and its user interface intact and this should > serve Ghost users very well now and in the future.
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Michael Solomon \(MS-MVP\) - 30 Dec 2004 23:53 GMT A backup copies whatever files you select. An image is a bit by bit copy of the entire selected partition.
Let's say you are about to do something you know is dangerous, something that might render XP unbootable. If you only have a backup, you would have to first reinstall XP, reinstall your applications, then restore your data from backup. If you have an image of your setup with all your applications installed, you would only need to restore the image, then restore your data from your backup.
 Signature Michael Solomon MS-MVP Windows Shell/User Backup is a PC User's Best Friend DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/
> Thanks. > I'm not sure that I understand the difference between a "mirror" and a [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> I can see they have kept Drive Image and its user interface intact and >> this should serve Ghost users very well now and in the future. Babel17delany - 31 Dec 2004 00:46 GMT Then it sounds from your explanation that an imaging program like "Norton Ghost" would be a better choice than a backup program like "Retrospect". The imaging program would be easier to use to recover from a crash that corrupted XP. Am I correct about this? Of course for both, the key would be to either backup or image copy often.
Michael Solomon (MS-MVP) wrote:
> A backup copies whatever files you select. An image is a bit by bit copy of > the entire selected partition. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > installed, you would only need to restore the image, then restore your data > from your backup.
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Michael Solomon \(MS-MVP\) - 31 Dec 2004 01:11 GMT Personally, I prefer to supplement and image with my backup. Once you have the image of the OS and the apps installed and all your drivers installed, if anything goes wrong, it's a relatively simple matter to restore the image and then the backup. It's not an either/or issue; one compliments and supplements the other.
It can be a bit of a long process to image your system so doing it daily in place of a backup can be a bit tedious. Second, it also gives you a form of two separate backups, especially if, for example, you image your system once or twice a month but backup any day you use the system. If something goes wrong with one, you still have the other.
That's one way of using it and a bit beyond my original recommendation. But assuming you create an image of your setup with apps and drivers installed, it gives you a quick restore that can be augmented with an up to date backup of your files. In this scenario, if something goes wrong with the image, you at least have the disks for your OS and applications and as long as you keep your backup up to date, you always have your data.
 Signature Michael Solomon MS-MVP Windows Shell/User Backup is a PC User's Best Friend DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/
> Then it sounds from your explanation that an imaging program like "Norton > Ghost" would be a better choice than a backup program like "Retrospect". [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> applications installed, you would only need to restore the image, then >> restore your data from your backup. Babel17delany - 31 Dec 2004 09:54 GMT That makes sense: Do the more lengthy Ghost occassionally to be able to boot with all your drivers under any circumstances, and do the briefer Backup often to have a very up-to-date copy of your files to reinsert.
Thanks for the advice.
Michael Solomon (MS-MVP) wrote:
> Personally, I prefer to supplement and image with my backup. Once you have > the image of the OS and the apps installed and all your drivers installed, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > you at least have the disks for your OS and applications and as long as you > keep your backup up to date, you always have your data.
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Gene Hora - 31 Dec 2004 13:42 GMT > That makes sense: Do the more lengthy Ghost occassionally to be able to > boot with all your drivers under any circumstances, and do the briefer [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> and as long as you keep your backup up to date, you always have your >> data. Ghost 9 also has the ability to restore individual files/folders from the backup image from within the operating system. So it's not only just an "image restore" program. You can also do this from the "recovery environment" -- that is, when you must boot from the Ghost CD.
A caveat: If you have multiple partitions/hard disks, be certain you know all the names of the disks/partitions! The manual states "Drive letters under the recovery environment may not match those in the Windows environment." I experienced this in one image recovery and had a small problem sorting out which drive was which to restore. You may not have that problem since e-Machines don't allow for much physical expansion room or capabilities.
Ghost 9 has worked well with me on 2 recent occasions. If technical/administrative support were the deciding factors in choosing, I couldn't recommend Symantec. I have the latest version of Acronis True Image but just have not gotten comfortable with it yet, although it's highly recommended by experts here whose opinions I respect -- that's why I bought it.
Babel17delany - 31 Dec 2004 19:37 GMT Thanks for the advice on the drive letters. I plan to buy an external hard drive next week. The one I bought for my other computer came with Retrospect. I will backup then decide if I want to image with Symantec or with Acronis. I too have seen people speak well of Acronis and poorly of Symantec service in these newsgroups. I'll have to decide which I want. And I'll write down the drive letters as well!
>>That makes sense: Do the more lengthy Ghost occassionally to be able to >>boot with all your drivers under any circumstances, and do the briefer [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > recommended by experts here whose opinions I respect -- that's why I bought > it.
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Michael Solomon \(MS-MVP\) - 31 Dec 2004 19:45 GMT "Ghost 9 also has the ability to restore individual files/folders from the backup image from within the operating system. So it's not only just an "image restore" program. You can also do this from the "recovery environment" -- that is, when you must boot from the Ghost CD."
This is true and certainly can be used as a backup but under the scenario I describe, it's only as good as the most recent image. I make the point about the difference or using both an image with the backup supplementing the image for a couple of reasons. First, it's good to have more than one backup type. Second, an image file is usually much larger than a backup file, especially a backup that is only used to backup the user's data and as such easier to store.
Because of the size of image files, users often simply store it on a separate partition. This works fine as long as the hard drive doesn't die but if it does, the image is lost. The smaller backup file is easier to store on other types of media and again is something of an insurance policy against some other storage going bad or the other file becoming otherwise corrupted.
 Signature Michael Solomon MS-MVP Windows Shell/User Backup is a PC User's Best Friend DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/
>> That makes sense: Do the more lengthy Ghost occassionally to be able to >> boot with all your drivers under any circumstances, and do the briefer [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > highly recommended by experts here whose opinions I respect -- that's why > I bought it. Michael Solomon \(MS-MVP\) - 31 Dec 2004 19:39 GMT You're welcome, good luck.
 Signature Michael Solomon MS-MVP Windows Shell/User Backup is a PC User's Best Friend DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/
> That makes sense: Do the more lengthy Ghost occassionally to be able to > boot with all your drivers under any circumstances, and do the briefer [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> and as long as you keep your backup up to date, you always have your >> data.
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