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Windows Forum / Windows XP / Hardware / September 2008Worm, trojan, virus, or simply power supply failure?
Yesterday, my wife's 5 year-old HP desktop began to re-boot at random intervals. Sometimes the re-boot occurred after loading the desktop, other times when attempting to run an application from the desktop, other times while acquiring the desktop, etc. Sometimes it even re- boots during the actual boot sequence, shutting down (and/or rebooting) before loading the desktop. When allowed sufficient time to do so before re-booting, I have run both installed antivirus programs and on-line antivirus checks. No findings. I have checked all connections and not found any to be loose. I have checked for out-of-date drivers and all are current. Just this morning, I decided to re-boot to the bios setup menu (pressing <Esc> key) just to see if it would also re-boot or not. I pulled up the setup menu and decided to let it stay on as long as needed to see what would happen. Shortly after pulling up the menu, it re-booted again, right from the bios setup menu. Now, iss this still a sign that a virus may be at work or does it sound like the power supply may be faulty? . > Yesterday, my wife's 5 year-old HP desktop began to re-boot at random > intervals. . . . > I have checked all connections and not found any to be loose. > . . . > Now, iss this still a sign that a virus may be at work or does it > sound like the power supply may be faulty? Likeliest causes are: 1. Failing power supply unit (testable only in a PC repair shop.) Power supply modules are cheap (and usually installed free.) 2. Overheating: you can test for this at home by removing one side of the case, to see whether this reduces frequency of spontaneous reboots.  SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > > Yesterday, my wife's 5 year-old HP desktop began to re-boot at random > > intervals. . . . [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Carlsbad Springs > (Ottawa, Canada) Well, I did run it for a while with one of the side panels off and had the same results. I also blew off all the gunk with a compressed air can and found it didn't help either. I guess that leaves the power supply as the probable cause. Thanks for the info and help. > Well, I did run it for a while with one of the side panels off and had > the same results. I also blew off all the gunk with a compressed air > can and found it didn't help either. I guess that leaves thepowersupply > as the probable cause. Your logic is that once all other possibilities are eliminated, then the only remaining possibility must be the problem. Sorry. Others posted only what they understand - a woefully incomplete list. Many understand heat - not electricity - and posted accordingly. First collect facts. For example, what do system (event) logs report? Does Device Manager report any hardware failures or conflicts? It is an HP. Therefore a responsible computer manufacturer provided comprehensive hardware diagnostics - for free. Diagnostics execute without Windows that complicates testing. What do those hardware diagnostics report? Power supply may have been defective for months. Defective power supplies can still boot a computer. But voltage numbers using a 3.5 digit multimeter could have discovered a problem then, AND determined if the power supply 'system' is defective now. System? Yes, power system is more than just a power supply which others often do not know. Which system component is defective OR can you say without doubt that all system components are good? Needed are definitive answers such as numbers provided by "When your computer dies without warning....." starting 6 Feb 2007 in the newsgroup alt.windows-xp at: http://tinyurl.com/yvf9vh Connector chart to locate each color: http://www.hardwarebook.net/connector/power/atxpower.html Either numbers obtained in less than 2 minutes will identify the problem; provide useful replies from the few who actually know how hardware works; or exonerate the entire power supply 'system' so that you can move on to other suspects. Move on without using wild speculation. Paul has also noted another reason for system instability. Any bulging on capacitors (especially near the CPU) is an indication of a pending hardware failure. If dust was a problem with a computer in a 70 degree room, then the computer has been defective for a long time. Computers must work just fine even in a 100 degree room. Executing comprehensive hardware diagnostics while computer is in a 100 degree room is another way to find the current failure OR locate impending failures. Even a defect in the video processing system could cause your failure. Those who wildly speculate did not even know that? Well, many will reply. But only a few really demand facts to provide definitive answers. Posted are how to post useful facts (especially numbers) so that following replies are useful. Once hardware is exonerated, then move on to other software suspects. Provides is how to get definitive answers - not speculation. In article <5f42bf9a-3534-4ed2-811a- 464b51ebd3ed@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, w_tom1@usa.net says... > If dust was a problem with a computer in a 70 degree room, then the > computer has been defective for a long time. Tom is such an idiot. Dust causes a loss of cooling that could be a problem in a 5 Deg change, or even an operational change, without any DEFECT being there. Hardware overheats all the time in systems that are filthy, fans that have failed, but it's not a defective computer, it's a defect in cooling. Signature- Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. - Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist" spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address) > In article <5f42bf9a-3534-4ed2-811a- > 464b51ebd3ed@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, w_tom1@usa.net says... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > filthy, fans that have failed, but it's not a defective computer, it's a > defect in cooling. I'd have to second this assessment. Even the interior of a dust-free computer, with all of its fans working, is going to be generally running roughly 40° F (22°) warmer than the ambient room temperature. This puts it close to the maximum operating temperatures of many of the internal components. Additionally, dust makes an excellent insulator, and can cause localized thermal problems for individual components (particularly motherboard chips and RAM) without there being any defect originally inherent in said components. Having said that, though, extended periods (weeks to months) of even mild over-heating can cause those components to become defective. SignatureBruce Chambers Help us help you: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/kb/555375 They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~Benjamin Franklin Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. ~Bertrand Russell The philosopher has never killed any priests, whereas the priest has killed a great many philosophers. ~ Denis Diderot > I'd have to second this assessment. Even the interior of a dust-free > computer, with all of its fans working, is going to be generally running > roughly 40° F (22°) warmer than the ambient room temperature. This puts > it close to the maximum operating temperatures of many of the internal > components. Now continue with the numbers. A properly constructed computer works just fine with dust balls when in a 100 degree F room. As long as dust does not completely obstruct air holes, then the computer should work just fine. Leythos again misdirects to create flame wars. The OP has removed dust and still has the same failure. Dust obviously was not reason for his problems. Again, wild speculation did not identify the problem. Heat is also a diagnostic tool to find defective hardware before that defect causes failure. Testing a computer in a 100 degree F room will temporarily make that intermittent into a hard problem - making the problem easy to locate and correct. Using heat as a diagnostic tool is also not popular because so many don't appreciate how semiconductors work. Listed are reasons for failure and how to find them. Almost none were listed by others who only understand heat and shotgunning - replacing parts only on speculation. Heat is the most often blamed reason for computer failure only because things such as how electricity works are mysterious for people such as Leythos. And again, Leythos posted no assistance for the OP; posted only to create a flame war. Computer with dust balls must work just fine and happy even in a 100 degree F room. Heat obviously is not a reason for the OP's problem. Heat can be a diagnostic tool especially if used with those other posted tools and procedures. In article <4549616d-317a-4c49-9267- 2a36d941837c@k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, w_tom1@usa.net says... > Now continue with the numbers. A properly constructed computer > works just fine with dust balls when in a 100 degree F room. As long > as dust does not completely obstruct air holes, then the computer > should work just fine. Air holes my arse tom, dust can get into the vanes of a heat-sink and block air flow, dust can get into the fins of a fan and cause it to stop spinning, etc...... You claimed dust wasn't an issue, we've shown that it CAN be an issue, as most of us have real experience with computers, unlike you. His problem could still be heat related. Signature- Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. - Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist" spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address) > In article <4549616d-317a-4c49-9267- > 2a36d9418...@k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, w_t...@usa.net says... [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist" > spam999f...@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address) Problem fixed! Replaced the power supply with a higher rated one (new 400w in place of original 250w) and the re-booting has not recurred. Of course, I'm sure there's no surefire way to know if the re-booting has actually stopped until the next re-boot occurs, and I may be in some longer-than-usual-between-re-boot cycle due to some iatrogenic cause, but I tried to force the re-boot and none has occurred. I opened and closed over 25 Word documents at the same time I downloaded a few files in the 450MB - 1GB range, had several applications running at the same time, played a CD, etc., and still no re-boot. I left the system running overnight and still no re-boot this morning. Maybe it was the power supply... Thanks to all for your help! I now have another question but in a different thread, titled: "5 year- old HP desktop RAM memory upgrade?" . > Of course, I'm sure there's no surefire way to know if the re-booting > has actually stopped until the next re-boot occurs, ... Had you used the meter, then a power supply problem would have been obvious. Trained techs use a meter to confirm a new supply will solve a problem. You don't know if the reason for re-booting was eliminated because you did not use a multimeter; did not see the problem before fixing it. Was problem masked only because connectors were cleaned by removing and replacing? Without numbers, nobody knows. Multimeter was the surefire way to know. Meanwhile a defective power supply can still boot and execute a computer without restarting. Use a meter when computer puts the supply under maximum load (less than 30 seconds of labor) to confirm the new supply is sufficient and stable. Those numbers can detect a defect before a supply causes strange restarts; before its warranty expires. In article <edf5f0d8-a2f5-4855-9ca0-203b44e36c10 @j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, w_tom1@usa.net says... > > Of course, I'm sure there's no surefire way to know if the re-booting > > has actually stopped until the next re-boot occurs, ... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > defect before a supply causes strange restarts; before its warranty > expires. A multi-meter is not 100% definitive in ability to determine if the power supply is bad, since a power supply can be intermittent and a meter may not tell the user since they may not be testing it at the time of a fault. In most cases, it's quite simple to diagnose a power supply problem if one follows basic, very basic, steps, none of them leave any doubt as to the PSU being the issue and they don't require a multi-meter, no learning how to use one, no having to learn about the voltage levels, etc.... As you can see, the OP repaired the system with a new PSU, and it worked fine. So, take your BS crap and multi-meter and put it where your false claims about UPS's not protecting computers is. Signature- Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. - Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist" spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address) > Your logic is that once all other possibilities are eliminated, then > the only remaining possibility must be the problem. Sorry. Others > posted only what they understand - a woefully incomplete list. Many > understand heat - not electricity - and posted accordingly. Well, you're right about not considering all the possibilities and people only posting what they understand. To allow for this eventuality, I have cross-posted this on <sci.geo.meteorology> to see if current weather conditions (I live in South Fla) might contribute to the problem, <sci.astro> and <sci.physics> to rule out any astral or interstellar factors, <alt.sci.physics.acoustics> in case its a localized problem with ambient noise, and other usenet groups too numerous to include, lest the ones I inadvertently leave out become offended by my ommission :-) > First collect facts. For example, what do system (event) logs > report? Does Device Manager report any hardware failures or > conflicts? It is an HP. Therefore a responsible computer > manufacturer provided comprehensive hardware diagnostics - for free. > Diagnostics execute without Windows that complicates testing. What do > those hardware diagnostics report? No system event logs, error messages, or other reports have ever been generated, especially when the PC reboots fromthe bios setup menu. None. Zilch. Nada. > Power supply may have been defective for months. Defective power > supplies can still boot a computer. But voltage numbers using a 3.5 [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Connector chart to locate each color: > http://www.hardwarebook.net/connector/power/atxpower.html I'll get back to you when I follow up and accomplish this suggestion. > Paul has also noted another reason for system instability. Any > bulging on capacitors (especially near the CPU) is an indication of a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > diagnostics while computer is in a 100 degree room is another way to > find the current failure OR locate impending failures. As I stated earlier, I just about emptied an entire can of compressed air on all moving blades, fins, grills, filters, and any other part I found inside the PC case. No effect. BTW, my PC is located in a room that manages to stay at 73 degrees. > Even a defect in the video processing system could cause your > failure. Those who wildly speculate did not even know that? Well, > many will reply. But only a few really demand facts to provide > definitive answers. Posted are how to post useful facts (especially > numbers) so that following replies are useful. I check this nsg daily to see when others reply and what they suggest. > Once hardware is exonerated, then move on to other software > suspects. Provides is how to get definitive answers - not > speculation. I agree, except I worked it backward, by first considering software then hardware. :-)) Sounds like and it is the Power supply. You made it clear by posting the following > When allowed sufficient time to do so before re-booting,< That means if it cools then it will work. If it is heated up it will shut down SignaturePeter Please Reply to Newsgroup for the benefit of others Requests for assistance by email can not and will not be acknowledged. > Yesterday, my wife's 5 year-old HP desktop began to re-boot at random > intervals. Sometimes the re-boot occurred after loading the desktop, [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > . > Yesterday, my wife's 5 year-old HP desktop began to re-boot at random > intervals. Sometimes the re-boot occurred after loading the desktop, [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > . Sounds like heat buildup. How long has it been since you last cleaned the filters and fans, and blew the crud out between the fins of the heatsinks? SignatureCheers, Bob > Yesterday, my wife's 5 year-old HP desktop began to re-boot at random > intervals. Sometimes the re-boot occurred after loading the desktop, [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > . Check for leaking capacitors around the processor area. The problem could be with the motherboard, and you might take a look near the processor, for stuff like this. Leaking caps can also leave a brown stain, of dried liquid, underneath the cap. http://www.badcaps.net/images/caps/kt7/image004.png The same problem can afflict the inside of the power supply, but going in there is not recommended. Paul |
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