Windows Forum / Windows XP / Security and Administration / December 2004
XP Firewall and ICS
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Alex McClane - 29 Dec 2004 22:29 GMT hi there I have a PC with 2 NICs (XP SP2) setup as an Internet Gateway connected to a cable modem using XP ICS. I have the XP firewall enabled by default.
The other PCs are connected to this PC through a wireless AP and everything works fine.
However, my question is, I have read that while XP Firewall does block incoming traffic, it does not for outgoing traffic (pings, probes etc.). So, will installing a personal firewall on the gateway PC like Sygate or Zone Alarm and disabling XP firewall be better off as they appear to report on both incoming and outgoing traffic.
Also, if anybody has this in place, will the personal firewall on the Gateway also block internal traffic between PCs on my network ?
Any answer will be greatly appreciated.....
Thanks
Alex
Dan Walker - 30 Dec 2004 00:09 GMT The best thing you can do is put a windows firewall on all machines and just make sure they can speak to each other.
> hi there > I have a PC with 2 NICs (XP SP2) setup as an Internet Gateway connected to [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Alex JW - 30 Dec 2004 07:25 GMT I don't know about Sygate, but ZoneAlarm is flexible enough to set up so that either all PCs on the local network can see each other, or set it up so that none can see each other.
Of course, if they can all see each other, then they can all share viruses, worms, Trojans and other infections, so if you set them up so that they all can see each other, then don't skimp on protection by settling for free anti-virus and anti-spyware programs, that Don't constantly protect you by staying active in memory. When Free versions of anti-virus and anti-spyware programs find infections, the infections have already done their dirty work.
Don't settle for Just Adequate. Buy versions of anti-virus and anti-spyware programs that constantly protect you from infections by staying active in memory.
hi there I have a PC with 2 NICs (XP SP2) setup as an Internet Gateway connected to a cable modem using XP ICS. I have the XP firewall enabled by default.
The other PCs are connected to this PC through a wireless AP and everything works fine.
However, my question is, I have read that while XP Firewall does block incoming traffic, it does not for outgoing traffic (pings, probes etc.). So, will installing a personal firewall on the gateway PC like Sygate or Zone Alarm and disabling XP firewall be better off as they appear to report on both incoming and outgoing traffic.
Also, if anybody has this in place, will the personal firewall on the Gateway also block internal traffic between PCs on my network ?
Any answer will be greatly appreciated.....
Thanks
Alex
Danor - 30 Dec 2004 12:13 GMT Alex-
Both Dan W and JW have valid points. If you go with Dan W - and firewall everything - you better use the same software on every PC unless you want to spend even more $$'s on Tylenol and Advil. You'd also be well advised to install identical NIC hardware if you can.
I too have a Gateway PC w/dual NICs setup as you described. I use a Belkin 4-port DSL router as HW firewall (which you did not mention in your setup: I think a HW firewall - such as the Belkin or LinkSys routers - between your cable modem and gateway ICS host is a very worthwhile improvement to your setup), a Linksys GigaSwitch for my workgroup, with Norton Internet Security installed and Windows firewall is disabled. As long as your cable-modem connects ONLY to the ICS host PC (and no other PC connects directly to your modem), then your Firewall protection should be effective for all PC's concerned (until some hacker figures out how to defeat that capabillity of memory-resident SW firewalls). I don't know how easy it is in ZoneAlarm to configure workgroup connectivity, but it's a peice of cake in Norton IS. They have created "zones" similar to IE which makes conceptual understanding of how to implement their software Tylenol-free.
JW's points re: "free" (mostly, but some paid-for ones, too) anti-virus and other mal-ware detectors is valid in that these programs are more like the old-style car "idiot-light" that tells you after the engine has fallen out, that indeed, the engine has just fallen out. The malware has already unleashed itself. An ounce of prevention... JW's advice is well to be heeded.
I would submit you consider this also in your evaluations as to how to best service your overall Security needs: "Real firewalls" are considerably complex animals. Most PC "Power Users" are not capable of managing them, they take a real Security Professional to install, configure, and maintain: they are quite complex. The huge majority of the firewall products which "regular" consumers like you and I consider - mostly because they are inexpensive and affordable to us - are merely scaled-down simplified versions and have the majority of the tweaks and nuances of a Real firewall pre-determined and decided for us by the manufacturer so they can sell it at $50/pop and still make a profit. What that does is to limit the flexibility the product has of being adjustable to suit any particular indivuduals' specific need - or environment - and some features are just not flexible at all. But in order to be more than just functional, flexible capability has to exist, so manufacturers do that. But not everybody is flexible the same ways, even across similar product lines or families. This causes firmware/upgrades/updates to be an additional maintenance chore for the Administrator (i.e. you). But if you implement multiple solutions on the same "layer", things can get mixed up fast if just one little setting who-the-heck-knows where gets changed (even if they're not on the same layer, this often occurs). And unless your expert enough in knowing how all the stuff you can't change works with all the stuff you can change, and then know how to recognize when somthing is set this way when it should be that way, twiddling with a handfull of firewalls instead of just one can be frustratingly time-consuming and cost-inefficient (think of what the electric company power meter looked like when The Griswald family house XMAS lights finally came on in Nat'l Lampoons Christmas Vacation w/Chevy Chase). On the other hand, you might need or actually like to get hip-deep in modern software technology. It's not like only rocket scientists can do it. If I can, then anybody can. Just prepare yourself for the picky mentality of Firewalls. After all, their sole purpose in life is to keep what wasn't asked for out, and let out *ONLY what you tell it* can go out. The more exceptions (e.g. rules) you build (or have to put in because you have placed more firewalls on other PC's that are really behind your REAL Firewall) will *always* make things more difficult for you to administer (i.e., take care of in a clean and well-documented way), so that the things you want to accomplish amongst your own little LAN can not only be done, but be done easily and simply. If the purpose of your LAN is more of a business or career-based/supportive role in your life, then perhaps the headaches and time-consumption that firmware upgrades (to routers and modems), new software releases/upgrades and updates (firewall, and lest we not forget to mention MS Service Packs), will bring to you in order to maintain a LAN where each PC is a fortress unto itself will entail, is worth it to you. Then again, perhaps not. But that's your decision to make, I'm not trying to make it for you. But if your LAN is more of a convenience (like a home network where most of the computing resources are utilized for pleasure or recreational activities) IMHO I would not spend nearly that amount of effort necessary in fretting over every little mal-ware. I'd keep my one Firewall as Robust and Current and simple as possible, in one place; and let the children inside the playground have an open sandbox - after all, I still wear the belt in my household, the rules will be obeyed! Just keep handy a periodically updated ASR-recovery system restore set on a bootable CD, and tell the family THEY are responsible in backing their Documents and Settings folder to the Gateway/server, so when you need to refresh a system, you can do so fairly easily. Perhaps the first rebuild or two will do more in teaching youngsters the value of responsibly maintaining a daily "chore", when they lose their collection of MP3s for the 2nd time because they didn't do backups. A pretty cheap way to learn a valuable trait...
As long as you keep your frontline security tools (anti-spyware, virus, and firewall) on your gateway to be the robust best-you-can-afford kind, and then up-to-date, and the other PC's behind it isolated from a direct connect to the internet *or any other computer*, and everybody exercises common sense practices about removable media (floppies, CD's Zips, etc) from external sources, save yourself from some headache in both configuring and maintaining firewalls on every machine (just keep your ASR restore backups current after each new SW install/upgrade). Unless, of course, you want an exercise that will require you to expand both your knowledge and technical capability with computing; such a project - successfully completed - will most certainly expand that knowledgebase.
Remember: with computers unless EVERYTHING is right something is WRONG and there aren't enough RIGHTS in the world to overcome one WRONG to a computer, it will just refuse to work until you make EVERY "bit" RIGHT. And firewalls are the pickiest of softwares to a computer.
But if your LAN security needs are to protect data and resources more vital than the family Entertainment Consoles, perhaps a more robust approach is called for. Isolating each PC has it's advantages. But... if each PC has the same level and kind of protection on it and something gets in onto one of them, then the others aren't appreciably more protected than the first one was. And unless you can run to the AP or gateway PC to do an emergency disconnect faster than those bits and bytes can whiz around your LAN... But, then again, having each PC port-configuring-capable makes it possible for you to micro-manage the ports on each of the PC's. Oh - BTW - there are over 65,000 ports... on *each* PC.
I realize this has been a long spill, but I hope it's helped you evaluate your situation to a more heightened state of clarity for your needs.
> I don't know about Sygate, but ZoneAlarm is flexible enough to set up so > that either all PCs on the local network can see each other, or set it up so [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Alex Eric Niewoehner - 30 Dec 2004 10:34 GMT To answer your question -- yes on both counts. I have just recently started messing with Windows XP firewall. I previously utilized Zone Alarm and have recently been using Norton's Internet Security firewall. I like ZA and Norton's for the very reason that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see which applications are using Internet connections.
On the flip side, I like Windows XP firewall to protect inbound traffic and typically use it on server devices. In which case, I am advertising services over a network and the firewall is just one way to ensure that I don't unintentionally open a port for enquiring minds.
Gateway firewalls usually end at the router, so peer-to-peer access should not be affected.
> hi there > I have a PC with 2 NICs (XP SP2) setup as an Internet Gateway connected to a [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Alex JW - 30 Dec 2004 11:30 GMT I also like ZoneAlarm for the superior flexibility in handling both inbound and outbound traffic. With ZA, it's not just Yes or No. If i am expecting inbound traffic from somebody particular on a specific port, i can set ZA to ask me, and answer Yes if it's who i expect, or No if it's somebody i do not expect. For outbound traffic, i can answer Yes if it's a program i know needs outbound permission, or answer No if it's a program that suddenly wants to break out without my expecting it. I can even change settings in a Limited Account. The disadvantage is the complexity and learning curve. The advantage of the XP firewall is it's simplicity. Norton's firewall got some unflattering remarks in the documentation for LeakTest on www.grc.com
To answer your question -- yes on both counts. I have just recently started messing with Windows XP firewall. I previously utilized Zone Alarm and have recently been using Norton's Internet Security firewall. I like ZA and Norton's for the very reason that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see which applications are using Internet connections.
On the flip side, I like Windows XP firewall to protect inbound traffic and typically use it on server devices. In which case, I am advertising services over a network and the firewall is just one way to ensure that I don't unintentionally open a port for enquiring minds.
Gateway firewalls usually end at the router, so peer-to-peer access should not be affected.
Alex McClane wrote:
> hi there > I have a PC with 2 NICs (XP SP2) setup as an Internet Gateway connected to [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Alex Alex McClane - 30 Dec 2004 22:33 GMT Thanks for all your responses guys. Very valid points too JW. I might have to reconsider my setup with the router. While I do not need the best virus/firewall software, I'd just prefer ones that do report a little better than XP's firewall.
Its just that sometimes, its better to know what is trying to get out especially if one has not initiated anything on the network.....
Thanks all... AMc
> I also like ZoneAlarm for the superior flexibility in handling both inbound > and outbound traffic. With ZA, it's not just Yes or No. If i am expecting [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > > > Alex JW - 31 Dec 2004 03:04 GMT http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,115939,pg,1,00.asp
i can understand the trade-off. sometimes, choosing the very best combination of anti-virus, anti-spyware, and firewall protection takes an investment in learning and tweaking that is not small. for most home users, who really don't want to buy into the investment of learning and tweaking 5-7 different programs (anti-virus, firewall, and 3-5 anti-spyware programs often recommended on this newsgroup), then see the PC World article above.
PC World tested/evaluated many firewall, anti-spyware, and anti-virus products recently, and detailed specific problems with Norton and McAfee products, that led them to recommend Neither one. Only one product was recommended in Both the firewall and anti-virus categories -- PCcillin Internet Security by Trend Micro. While i still prefer separate specialized products, i am now learning the ropes with the PCcillin suite, and like what i see.
it covers all the bases well, including detection and warning of Outbound communication, but i would urge readers here to Not give up the superior anti-spyware products often recommended in this newsgroup, including IE-Spyad and Spybot S&D. Warnings for inbound communication are not available in PCcillin's firewall (only Allow or Block).
Thanks for all your responses guys. Very valid points too JW. I might have to reconsider my setup with the router. While I do not need the best virus/firewall software, I'd just prefer ones that do report a little better than XP's firewall.
Its just that sometimes, its better to know what is trying to get out especially if one has not initiated anything on the network.....
Thanks all... AMc
"JW" wrote:
> I also like ZoneAlarm for the superior flexibility in handling both > inbound [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > > > Alex
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